Ah the old " where does the original car start and stop".
I dont think any body will ever agree on this one.
I kind of agree with monza here.
Replace ALL he damaged panels (and that could mean 95% of them) but it still remains the original car. (i guess)
However, as a side note, i cannot recall these pinepac cars ever being involved in an accident .
New race Car or a Total?
Started by
_rorym_
, Feb 28 2011 06:06 PM
58 replies to this topic
#27
GML-31
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 08:37 AM
if they were re-shelled back then nobody would give a shit so why do we bother now, we have evidence it is the real car so replace whats necessary and its still the same.
#28
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 08:48 AM
If the documentation and the log book shows the reshell, it should be in order....
A9X, you have a valid point.
The rules are as follows:
Eligible vehicles:
(a) Only the actual vehicles for which a Group A log book was issued by CAMS, FISA or other national sporting authorities (ASN) will be recognised.
(
A clear line of history is required for each eligible vehicle. The applicant for a Certificate of Description and log book must, with the application, provide all evidence reasonably necessary to establish a clear line of history© Other than in respect of variations permitted in terms of these regulations, each vehicle must be presented in the same specification as noted in the homologation/recognition document, and as it was presented for competition at an event (the �Specified Competition Event�) during a year in which the vehicle competed as a Group A Touring Car in the Group A period (the �Specification Year�).
No new vehicles may be constructed.
Vehicles reconstructed using only spare or damaged and cast-of components are not eligible for this group.
A chassis/body may, but does not necessarily, constitute an eligible vehicle.
Ultimately it would be up to Cams to issue a new CofD, and from what I've read this wouldn't be its current 'Gold Standard' CofD, but the lesser 'Standard' CofD.
From the Group A/C forum
3) Cars reshelled within the period, which may have continued in competition, and now applying for CofD will need to be supported by detailed information about the damaged or replaced shell as part of the overall history of the car. These cars would only be considered for a Gold or Standard CofD provided they meet all the criteria as currently applied.
4) Cars reshelled out of the period will be considered only on a case by case basis. The damaged or replaced shell MUST be able to be accounted for. Generally, a continuous race history, even if it is in subsequent categories, will need to be shown. Our EO's are a highly skilled group - please respect their knowledge in these areas. These cars will not necessarily/automatically be considered for Conditional CofD's just because an application has been made.
There is already talk of this car being repaired using the damaged shell. Hopefully this is what happens.
#29
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 09:04 AM
thanks craig.......case closed rory
glad the young blokes alright and besides its just a f$rd
glad the young blokes alright and besides its just a f$rd
Edited by meanmachine72, 01 March 2011 - 09:05 AM.
#30
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 10:16 AM
thanks mate.
interesting to say how it progresses
interesting to say how it progresses
#31
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:16 PM
got me thinking about those rebels on saggy now !!
laz
So if Saggy got totalled and reshelled would she still be Saggy Sarah?
In my mind she would be gone, even though the new shell may race on, it wouldn't be Saggy anymore.
Just my opinion and gut feel though.
#32
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:39 PM
i understand and agree with those rules but do we have the luxury of removing damaged and repaired cars in this day and age when there are so few left
Edited by rob350hatch, 01 March 2011 - 12:46 PM.
#33
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:11 PM
so if half the opera house collapsed and it was rebuilt would it still be the opera house?
#34
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:19 PM
One of the understandable concerns from the A/C guys is that reshells and especially replicas aren't as valuable as a fully original 'as raced' car and therefore the spirit of historic racing may not prevail.
The example always given is that if a genuine car and a reshell or replica are 'fighting' for a particular corner then two types of attitude exist.
We would all expect the guy in the original car to relent and preserve history, while the car in the reshell/replica charges on with the knowledge that he can just build it again.
And what about if we go and watch a Group A/C race and half the cars aren't the real thing? "Oh look thats the such and such Commodore, did you know its a reshell?" "Or that Fraud XD, its got the original gearbox and wheels from such and such's 82 Bathurst car but otherwise its just a replica.
I love the fact we go racing and I get to work on the the original thing. To stand on the dummy grid when its full of the exact cars that were there 20-30 years ago (or more) is very very special.
As per my previous post I was wrong in thinking a fresh reshell can't race, it looks like they can be still raced in the Group A/C category - dependent on if CAM's will reissue the CofD.
By the way, I love well built replicas as they allow guys to access cars of their dreams without the massive price tags of originals cars.
EDIT:
Yes of course it would Kev, but clearly not the SAME one.
The example always given is that if a genuine car and a reshell or replica are 'fighting' for a particular corner then two types of attitude exist.
We would all expect the guy in the original car to relent and preserve history, while the car in the reshell/replica charges on with the knowledge that he can just build it again.
And what about if we go and watch a Group A/C race and half the cars aren't the real thing? "Oh look thats the such and such Commodore, did you know its a reshell?" "Or that Fraud XD, its got the original gearbox and wheels from such and such's 82 Bathurst car but otherwise its just a replica.
I love the fact we go racing and I get to work on the the original thing. To stand on the dummy grid when its full of the exact cars that were there 20-30 years ago (or more) is very very special.
i understand and agree with those rules but do we have the luxury of removing damaged and repaired cars in this day and age when there are so few left
As per my previous post I was wrong in thinking a fresh reshell can't race, it looks like they can be still raced in the Group A/C category - dependent on if CAM's will reissue the CofD.
By the way, I love well built replicas as they allow guys to access cars of their dreams without the massive price tags of originals cars.
EDIT:
so if half the opera house collapsed and it was rebuilt would it still be the opera house?
Yes of course it would Kev, but clearly not the SAME one.
Edited by CraigA, 01 March 2011 - 01:21 PM.
#35
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:36 PM
yes i read it again i say they would reissue and release it back to group a .maybe not so a few years ago but they can produce the damaged shell and it is clear beyond doubt what happened.so they should be right.
#36
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 03:54 PM
so if half the opera house collapsed and it was rebuilt would it still be the opera house?
If it half collapsed and they rebuilt the broken part, yes, it is the Opera House still.
If it fully collapsed and they rebuilt it, it is either a replica of the original one or a new opera house.
You could put the Mustang running gear in a Falcon and it isn't the mustang anymore.
If you put it in a new mustang body, it is a replica of the original with the original running gear.
If you repair the original one with all new panels then to me it is still the same car.
But if you remove all of the parts and put them in another car, then it is clearly not.
That's just my opinion and I am in no way an expert.
#37
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 09:04 PM
OK...Good debate...now I will throw in more ...If I buy an F5000...as Craig says..the metal fatigue in these things is HUGE...I need to replace all corners with new cast uprights for safety reasons.....suspension arms..in the case of a monoque it might be a new tub...I remove the ID plate...and fit it to the new tub...which I know happened recently to a F2 March...are we still the same car?...It gets more interesting and complicated as you go forward for safetys sake,.
R
R
#38
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Posted 01 March 2011 - 10:34 PM
I think that if a certain percentage of the original body is just that original, then its still a genuine touring car.
#39
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 05:15 AM
OK...Good debate...now I will throw in more ...If I buy an F5000...as Craig says..the metal fatigue in these things is HUGE...I need to replace all corners with new cast uprights for safety reasons.....suspension arms..in the case of a monoque it might be a new tub...I remove the ID plate...and fit it to the new tub...which I know happened recently to a F2 March...are we still the same car?...It gets more interesting and complicated as you go forward for safetys sake,.
R
exactly, they are a perfect example. A large amount of those have had muliple tubs. and mutiple cars morfed from a single chassis ID
even current supercars would change constanly from meeting to meeting, so he rules quoted above would be the most sensable way of covering it.
A continuious line of history captures its identity.
#40
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 05:35 AM
OK...Good debate...now I will throw in more ...If I buy an F5000...as Craig says..the metal fatigue in these things is HUGE...I need to replace all corners with new cast uprights for safety reasons.....suspension arms..in the case of a monoque it might be a new tub...I remove the ID plate...and fit it to the new tub...which I know happened recently to a F2 March...are we still the same car?...It gets more interesting and complicated as you go forward for safetys sake,.
R
exactly, they are a perfect example. A large amount of those have had muliple tubs. and mutiple cars morfed from a single chassis ID
even current supercars would change constanly from meeting to meeting, so he rules quoted above would be the most sensable way of covering it.
A continuious line of history captures its identity.
#41
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:02 AM
what i,ve heard is they are going to repair rather than reshell , it can be done with replacement panels utilising the original floorpan etc , expensive exercise but worth it .
i think it is the maddren owned car that is for sale not this one .
i think this car was the spare shell that anderson bros built to same spec as the seton car ,story is anderson brothers bought setons mustang and a spare shell and parts and built a second car in the day
good to hear the young bloke is ok
i think it is the maddren owned car that is for sale not this one .
i think this car was the spare shell that anderson bros built to same spec as the seton car ,story is anderson brothers bought setons mustang and a spare shell and parts and built a second car in the day
good to hear the young bloke is ok
#42
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:24 AM
the one for sale is not the one that crashed, and rumour has it now that they have looked at it they are going to try and repair it.
#43
_rogered_
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 11:27 AM
So this is not the Ex seton car
its the Ken Hopper nz built car. Is that correct?
its the Ken Hopper nz built car. Is that correct?
#44
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 12:44 PM
Rory its the grandfathers axe scenario.
I've still got my grandfathers axe.
we changed the handle a few times and the head once, but its still my grandfathers axe.
for me personally, i think its the shell ( or in the case of your F5, the tub) everything else is a consumable or bolt on, but the shell is the car. don't get me started on cut n shuts.
I've still got my grandfathers axe.
we changed the handle a few times and the head once, but its still my grandfathers axe.
for me personally, i think its the shell ( or in the case of your F5, the tub) everything else is a consumable or bolt on, but the shell is the car. don't get me started on cut n shuts.
#45
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 03:27 PM
[quote name='A9X' timestamp='1299033884' post='575059']
Rory its the grandfathers axe scenario.
I've still got my grandfathers axe.
we changed the handle a few times and the head once, but its still my grandfathers axe.
an obsessive compulsive persons nightmare lol
Rory its the grandfathers axe scenario.
I've still got my grandfathers axe.
we changed the handle a few times and the head once, but its still my grandfathers axe.
an obsessive compulsive persons nightmare lol
#46
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 04:15 PM
So this is not the Ex seton car
its the Ken Hopper nz built car. Is that correct?
HERES THE MADDREN CAR FOR SALE http://www.ecurieinv...up-ford-mustang
the story about this car being built by the kiwi,s is there and note the seton car was rolled in its day too.
Edited by WhiteA9XS, 02 March 2011 - 04:17 PM.
#47
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Posted 02 March 2011 - 05:14 PM
This one is owned by Brian Marshall.I was going on a conversation overheard that one driver said he was talking to the owner and it was for sale for $140k...Dont know.
R
R
Edited by rorym, 02 March 2011 - 05:17 PM.
#48
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Posted 04 March 2011 - 07:06 PM
found this
Found this shot of the roll over mentioned earlier. Practice for nissan mobil 500
#49
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Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:50 PM
The car in this pic looks to be Brett's car, Notice the alloy cage as, the roll over car from the weekend has a steel cagefound this
Found this shot of the roll over mentioned earlier. Practice for nissan mobil 500
#50
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Posted 14 March 2011 - 09:29 AM
My 2c........
EVERY component of a race car is a "wear item" including the shell.
ALL components should at one time or another need replacement.
The rules of a historic category such as group C/A need to be sympathetic to this.
The competitiors who race these cars have to accept that there is a real chance of damage to their CAR/INVESTMENT during an event and to say that a fellow competitor in a lower valued car (replica or not) would be less prepared to yeild a corner based on the worth of their car vs the worth of a higher spec car is just purely an elitist attitude.
A simple franchise based system of replicas would stop all this. The racing would be better, the investment potential of the original car would be protected and the elitist attitude of the wealthy folk that congregate in the class could still be respected....
For those who say that replicas will be the end of the road for their investment in the original cars................
Most historic racing cars that are actively competing in Europe are REPLICAS... the originals are safely tucked away in museums.. This doesn't seem to have diminished their worth any.
Cheers Greg..
EVERY component of a race car is a "wear item" including the shell.
ALL components should at one time or another need replacement.
The rules of a historic category such as group C/A need to be sympathetic to this.
The competitiors who race these cars have to accept that there is a real chance of damage to their CAR/INVESTMENT during an event and to say that a fellow competitor in a lower valued car (replica or not) would be less prepared to yeild a corner based on the worth of their car vs the worth of a higher spec car is just purely an elitist attitude.
A simple franchise based system of replicas would stop all this. The racing would be better, the investment potential of the original car would be protected and the elitist attitude of the wealthy folk that congregate in the class could still be respected....
For those who say that replicas will be the end of the road for their investment in the original cars................
Most historic racing cars that are actively competing in Europe are REPLICAS... the originals are safely tucked away in museums.. This doesn't seem to have diminished their worth any.
Cheers Greg..
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