Hey guys, Im chasing a twin output thermo fan switch
Similar to the ones found here:
http://www.tridon.co...35&G=483&P=2014
But my current single output one is M16 and they have no twin output 16mm ones... Id prefer not to have to weld up the hole and tap it for 14mm. Surely there are other manufacturers of these?
Ive been looking thru google for last hour or so and no luck :( Does anyone on here happen to have any idea?
Twin Output Thermo Fan Switch
Started by
_Viper_
, Dec 29 2011 06:14 PM
54 replies to this topic
#2
dattoman
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:35 PM
Try Fuelmiser ... catalogue at work though
http://www.motospecs...?page=fuelmiser
Engine management section
What does a Falcon use ?
Might be easier to find or make some sort of adaptor to suit a readily available one
http://www.motospecs...?page=fuelmiser
Engine management section
What does a Falcon use ?
Might be easier to find or make some sort of adaptor to suit a readily available one
#3
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:58 PM
I take it that those in the link are the temp.sensors?
If so, just use one and use it to drive the solenoid windings on a relay to switch the fans.
They appear to be normally open,run 12v to one lug of sensor (switched or un switched thru sensor),other lug to solenoid on relay (85 0r 86)
Then run from 85 or 86 depending on which on used ^^ to ground.
Run 12v to relay contact lugs(30 or 87) through a fuse from perm 12v then a wire from (30 or 87 depending on which one is free) to fans.
other side of fans to ground.my 2c.
If so, just use one and use it to drive the solenoid windings on a relay to switch the fans.
They appear to be normally open,run 12v to one lug of sensor (switched or un switched thru sensor),other lug to solenoid on relay (85 0r 86)
Then run from 85 or 86 depending on which on used ^^ to ground.
Run 12v to relay contact lugs(30 or 87) through a fuse from perm 12v then a wire from (30 or 87 depending on which one is free) to fans.
other side of fans to ground.my 2c.
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:40 PM
pic. if any help!
[attachment=17675:relay.jpg]
[attachment=17675:relay.jpg]
#5
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:21 PM
I think he wants to control each fan individually
#6
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:06 PM
Stagger the cut in temp of sensors?
[attachment=17676:relay2.jpg]
[attachment=17676:relay2.jpg]
#7
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 09:51 PM
Hey guys, Im chasing a twin output thermo fan switch
Similar to the ones found here:
http://www.tridon.co...35&G=483&P=2014
I think you've misunderstood how the switches work. The single terminal switches work by completing a contact between the spade terminal and earth, typically the earth terminal of the relay is connected here.
For the two terminal switches the switch connects the two terminals together at the appropriate temp, more versatility in that it can be used to control a +ve wire.
Not sure what you are after, but if you want the two fans to come on at different temps, you'll need two switches with different temp ratings or a thermistor device that electronically controls the fans.....like on newer cars.
#8
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 10:47 PM
Yea I've already got relays setup I just want these to trigger the relay. And I want one to come on first, say 87'c and switch off at 80c and the other to come on at 95'c and switch off at 85'c
Which is what those duel output ones do don't they? It states 2 sets of the on/off values
And that's what it looks like in the circuit diagram, is just 2 of the single spade senders in 1 but instead of earthing through the body it earths externally?
Which is what those duel output ones do don't they? It states 2 sets of the on/off values
And that's what it looks like in the circuit diagram, is just 2 of the single spade senders in 1 but instead of earthing through the body it earths externally?
Edited by Viper, 29 December 2011 - 10:50 PM.
#9
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 10:55 PM
You are correct, there are twin contact switches that operate the same as a single contact switch but each terminal operates in a different temperature range. For exmple TFS217.
Temp Range: 90°C to 85°C and 97°C to 92°C
Is there enough brass in the normal Torana temperature sender adaptor to drill and tap at 14 mm?
Another option is to run one in the manifold and one in the radiator or use a delay relay on the second fan so it cuts in 30 seconds later.
If money is no object then there is the Painless Performance Dual fan controller with PWM. I have one on the shelf if you want to have a look.
http://www.summitrac...arts/PRF-30142/
Temp Range: 90°C to 85°C and 97°C to 92°C
Is there enough brass in the normal Torana temperature sender adaptor to drill and tap at 14 mm?
Another option is to run one in the manifold and one in the radiator or use a delay relay on the second fan so it cuts in 30 seconds later.
If money is no object then there is the Painless Performance Dual fan controller with PWM. I have one on the shelf if you want to have a look.
http://www.summitrac...arts/PRF-30142/
Edited by ls2lxhatch, 29 December 2011 - 11:09 PM.
#10
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:16 PM
I also have a new SPAL fan controller for sale $80. It runs one fan variable speed (PWM) as the temp rises. Once the temp reaches the high temp setting the second fan is run at full speed. The high and low temps are programable.
The controller can read the existing guages temp sender or a second temp sender that is included.
http://www.spal-usa....s/fanpwmV3.html
The controller can read the existing guages temp sender or a second temp sender that is included.
http://www.spal-usa....s/fanpwmV3.html
#11
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:28 PM
Yea thats what I thought Andy...
A 30 second delay relay could be the go tho, I have not heard of them... one of the main reasons I wanted to stager the fans is the Twin AU's are quite large and when they both fire up at the same time they have a spike of about 30amps each then settle down to 10amps each. The 60amp spike killed my single output switch when they had it on the dyno.
So a 30 second delay in the 2nd relay would solve that issue... Altho I did like the idea of them being staggered and only running the 2nd fan when needed
But if its just a matter of pulling one of the relays out and replacing it with a "30 second delay one" that would be easy as.
Where would I find one of these? Jaycar?
The Spal system looks the goods. but makes it alot more complicated and requiring a change in my wiring (which is all hidden now) And I think the twin output switch would do the job more then well enough.
I can always remove the radiator, cut out the 16mm bung and weld in a 14 or 22mm one.. But im looking for the easiest option.
A 30 second delay relay could be the go tho, I have not heard of them... one of the main reasons I wanted to stager the fans is the Twin AU's are quite large and when they both fire up at the same time they have a spike of about 30amps each then settle down to 10amps each. The 60amp spike killed my single output switch when they had it on the dyno.
So a 30 second delay in the 2nd relay would solve that issue... Altho I did like the idea of them being staggered and only running the 2nd fan when needed
But if its just a matter of pulling one of the relays out and replacing it with a "30 second delay one" that would be easy as.
Where would I find one of these? Jaycar?
The Spal system looks the goods. but makes it alot more complicated and requiring a change in my wiring (which is all hidden now) And I think the twin output switch would do the job more then well enough.
I can always remove the radiator, cut out the 16mm bung and weld in a 14 or 22mm one.. But im looking for the easiest option.
#12
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:54 PM
I think this is the relay you want.
http://db.hella.com....ew&flmaint=2702
I have not used one myself yet. I was planning to use one to keep the electric windows active for a couple of minutes after the ignition is switched off and I did consider using one to soften the thermo fan load on the alternator during startup.
I do not understand why your thermo swtich was seeing the load from the fans. The thermo switch should only be triggering the relays, it should not be providing power to the fans. The only load on the thermo switch should be the relay trigger which is typically less than 0.2 amps per relay.
http://db.hella.com....ew&flmaint=2702
I have not used one myself yet. I was planning to use one to keep the electric windows active for a couple of minutes after the ignition is switched off and I did consider using one to soften the thermo fan load on the alternator during startup.
I do not understand why your thermo swtich was seeing the load from the fans. The thermo switch should only be triggering the relays, it should not be providing power to the fans. The only load on the thermo switch should be the relay trigger which is typically less than 0.2 amps per relay.
#13
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:10 AM
The thermo switch is providing the earth for the relays... The Relays are triggerd by the ignition switch.
#14
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:15 AM
But thats because I only had single terminal temp activated switch... If I had the duel output one I can run it like above.
#15
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 01:49 AM
For what ever it's worth by the way...I use that Spal controller myself, and it works perfectly. I use it to control a pair of high output Spal fans and it will control the engine temperature right where you want it.
I also use the input on the control from my trianary A/C switch so it ramps up the fans to high when needed as well...so even while standing still there is more than enough air movement across the condensor as well to keep the temps cool.
The second fan is only on or off the though, the spal controller only regulates the primary fan with a variable speed. I just use a high amp relay controlled by the Spal unit to trigger the 2nd fan on or off.
I also use the input on the control from my trianary A/C switch so it ramps up the fans to high when needed as well...so even while standing still there is more than enough air movement across the condensor as well to keep the temps cool.
The second fan is only on or off the though, the spal controller only regulates the primary fan with a variable speed. I just use a high amp relay controlled by the Spal unit to trigger the 2nd fan on or off.
#16
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:14 PM
The wiring is basically the same whether you have one temperature switch or two, one fan or two. You just add a relay for each additional fan and add a jumper for the temperature switch or connect the second temperature switch. The temperature switch is only used to trigger the relay, it is the relays job to switch +ve or -ve to the fan (typically +ve).
There are two basic reasons why a relay is used.
1. Remote switching to reduce the length of high load wiring to avoid voltage drop. eg. Headlights
2. To protect sensitive devices from high loads. eg. Temperature switches and electronic fan controllers.
There are two basic reasons why a relay is used.
1. Remote switching to reduce the length of high load wiring to avoid voltage drop. eg. Headlights
2. To protect sensitive devices from high loads. eg. Temperature switches and electronic fan controllers.
Edited by ls2lxhatch, 30 December 2011 - 12:29 PM.
#17
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:40 PM
2elcs is using one of those dual temp switches and they are a good thing.
Shame it just doesn't screw in, could you get a block off bung, then drill and tap through the bung to the correct size?
I'm using the SPAL system in the HQ, to control the au thermos.
I had a single sensor triggering both fans and it was killing 40a fuses instantly.
Turned out when I put the SPAL controller on it warned me of a motor drawing over current. Turned out I had a dud motor!
The fans were brand spanking new and nit seems I had this fault from new!
No headaches now though
Shame it just doesn't screw in, could you get a block off bung, then drill and tap through the bung to the correct size?
I'm using the SPAL system in the HQ, to control the au thermos.
I had a single sensor triggering both fans and it was killing 40a fuses instantly.
Turned out when I put the SPAL controller on it warned me of a motor drawing over current. Turned out I had a dud motor!
The fans were brand spanking new and nit seems I had this fault from new!
No headaches now though
#18
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 01:22 PM
Yea thats what I thought Andy...
A 30 second delay relay could be the go tho, I have not heard of them... one of the main reasons I wanted to stager the fans is the Twin AU's are quite large and when they both fire up at the same time they have a spike of about 30amps each then settle down to 10amps each. The 60amp spike killed my single output switch when they had it on the dyno.
So a 30 second delay in the 2nd relay would solve that issue... Altho I did like the idea of them being staggered and only running the 2nd fan when needed
firstly, apologies from previous post, didnt look past the first page of the link to see the dual temperature sensors
re the start up spike? if each fan is on a separate relay and fuse wouldnt that solve your problem? they can still be triggered by the one thermal switch.
while there is the getting the temperature aspect of the wiring under control, many overlook the other electrical basics of setting up elec fans:: part of that includes ensuring the fans dont come on if the engine isnt running(regardless of whether the ign is switched on or not) or indeed when the starter is activated.
Edited by torbirdie, 30 December 2011 - 01:23 PM.
#19
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:11 PM
That is exactly how I have mine wired... And with it that way isnt all the current also passing through the "Sending unit (grey)" ? Or would that terminal only see the switching current and the main current only runs through the +ve of the relay and the -ve out of the fans... If thats the case I donno why my sender unit failed then?
Ive got 2 relays like that and Ive run 2x 50amp wires to the "sending unit / Thermo switch" as I was always planning to use a twin output switch. But for the time being I had the 2 wires spliced together and run to a single output switch. The guys at the dyno said it was fine for awhile then just stopped working...
#20
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:43 PM
It sounds like the temperature switch did not die from overload. If you have it wired as above then the current draw of the fans would have no effect on the temperature switch as the temperature switch is on a separate circuit. Running 50 amp cable to the temperature switch is not required as the temperature switch circuit only controls the relay which will draw less than 0.2 amps.
The relay has two separate circuits.
Pins 85 and 86 make up the trigger/remote switching circuit. The current draw on this circuit is the amount of current required by the relay to trigger the switch which is typically less than 0.2 amps. You only need 2.5 mm 5 amp cable for this circuit.
Pins 30 and 87 make up the switched circuit. The current draw on this circuit is dictated by the current draw of the device connected to the relay. The cable in this circuit should be big enough to handle the current draw of the device connected. In the case of the AU fans 5 mm 25 amp cable should be sufficient.
If you were to replace a relay with a manual switch then you would connect the cables from pins 30 and 87 to the switch and discard the cables running to pins 85 and 86.
The relay has two separate circuits.
Pins 85 and 86 make up the trigger/remote switching circuit. The current draw on this circuit is the amount of current required by the relay to trigger the switch which is typically less than 0.2 amps. You only need 2.5 mm 5 amp cable for this circuit.
Pins 30 and 87 make up the switched circuit. The current draw on this circuit is dictated by the current draw of the device connected to the relay. The cable in this circuit should be big enough to handle the current draw of the device connected. In the case of the AU fans 5 mm 25 amp cable should be sufficient.
If you were to replace a relay with a manual switch then you would connect the cables from pins 30 and 87 to the switch and discard the cables running to pins 85 and 86.
Edited by ls2lxhatch, 30 December 2011 - 05:55 PM.
#21
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:07 PM
Ah ok, Then dont know why my switch failed...
#22
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:32 PM
The only possible wiring explaination I can think of is that somehow the -ve wire from the fans is connected to the temperature switch. Where have you connected the -ve wire from the fans?
#24
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:15 PM
May have been a faulty sensor?
How long did it survive?
My fans worked perfectly ( or so i thought!!) Till the SPAL controller told me i had an over current motor - replaced and all good since!
How long did it survive?
My fans worked perfectly ( or so i thought!!) Till the SPAL controller told me i had an over current motor - replaced and all good since!
#25
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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:36 PM
I think if you want to easily get around the initial surge problem when both fans kick in
is to use 2 different temp.sensors like torbirdie suggested, and drive each fan relay from seperate
sensors.
If you choose a temp. that you want "fan 1" to start then choose a temp.that you want "fan 2" to start
hopefully they wont overlap,even though fan 1 will still be running when fan2 kicks in the fan that
has been triggered at the higher temp.should cut out b4 the fan that was triggered at the lower temp.
Lot of good systems out there by the looks,the sensors do fail.
Makes no difference if the fans come on when no ign.(hard wired),they dont run too long to drain battery
and brings underbonnet temps. down in "hot soak" park type,,you know,when you stop.
Saves a bit of rubber and plastic from high temps.
is to use 2 different temp.sensors like torbirdie suggested, and drive each fan relay from seperate
sensors.
If you choose a temp. that you want "fan 1" to start then choose a temp.that you want "fan 2" to start
hopefully they wont overlap,even though fan 1 will still be running when fan2 kicks in the fan that
has been triggered at the higher temp.should cut out b4 the fan that was triggered at the lower temp.
Lot of good systems out there by the looks,the sensors do fail.
Makes no difference if the fans come on when no ign.(hard wired),they dont run too long to drain battery
and brings underbonnet temps. down in "hot soak" park type,,you know,when you stop.
Saves a bit of rubber and plastic from high temps.
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