70 replies to this topic

[Dr Terry]

Dr Terry , I have a spare 3.3 Short motor , would that be allowed in an LC without fitting the pollution components ?

In my book, as long as it had the correct LC carby/manifolds/ air cleaner, yes. Again it depends on the rules 'made up' by the club.

What I base my decision on, is firstly common sense, why would you not allow a stock 3.3/202 in an LC which had a 130 bhp (2850 S) & 160 bhp (XU-1) as factory alternatives. As long as the car had disc brakes, there would be no engineering certification issues either.

I have genuine GM-H paperwork listing the various engine types which could be retrofitted by their dealers & not breach GM-H engineering guidelines. It was obviously a problem back in the 70s, if any model came into the dealership service dept. & needed a new engine & that exact engine type was no longer available.

The obvious ones like fitting a 186 in place of an EH 179 or 173 in place of an HR 161, seem simple, but what are the ramifications if the dealer fits it & there are legal liability dramas down the track.

Without listing every one of them, any LC/LJ 6 Torana could have a 202 fitted if the car had front disc brakes. A 173 was the limit with 4-wheel drums. Engineers would follow similar guidelines

For their part the car club only has to take 2 things into account when they allow cars onto HCRS.

1. Is it RTA legal without engineering certification.
2. Does it look authentic from the historical point of view.

Nothing about point 2 should involve trim numbers & the like. So what, if the trim or paint colour doesn't match those listed on the Body ID plate, an LH with L20 on its plate has an L32 in it or the Grey motor in somebody's FE has an EJ prefix. None of these are against any RTA rules.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

threeblindmice, I've just re-read your question & realised that I missed the part about 'pollution' components.

You still have to keep the car RTA legal. If the 3.3 motor you have is a late one, say Blue VH Commodore, you need to keep those components if you are fitting it to the LC & stay RTA legal. If your club will accept that on HCRS, then OK.

The club that I belong to probably would not allow it on authenticity grounds unless it's painted red & the air cleaner looks the part, & that's difficult with an ADR27A air cleaner. This is where some have a problem with club rules. It depends on how passionate the members are about the authenticity or historical correctness of these components as to how 'picky' they are.

If the 3.3 is out of say an HX/HZ, less work would be required, but you still need to retain the manifolds etc. With an HQ/HJ/LJ/LH engine you can legally fit all of your LC bits, no problems.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

After reading this, i'm happy to pay full rego on my cars every year. I think if i ever undertake a concourse restoration to factory specs on a Torana, be a factory six or eight, i will still pay full rego on it. Too many rules IMO to justify the savings gained by having the car on "H" plates, i enjoy the freedom of being able to drive my cars whenever & wherever i want.

That's the beauty of living in a free country like Australia. In Sydney it now costs around $1000 per year to register a 10+ year old car, many owners are happy to pay only $60 & live with any perceived limitations. This is especially so if you own a number of historic cars. If you want more freedoms, pay full rego, that's OK too, everybody's happy.

If you think your particular club is being too strict, become more involved with the club itself, get on the committee. OR join another club. I know in our club, we are very middle of the road with our rules & we always have trouble finding enough members to join the committee at election time.

Dr Terry

[enderwigginau]

Just to add, in the case of this rego in all states, vehicles must be roadworthy........no matter HOW the rule is interpreted........so whether you allow certain accessories or not, if they aren't roadworthy, the car isn't legally registered...........Drop tanks are the main case in point........

[LHSL]

This is why we are looking for H rego on our 2 Torana's that we are buiding now.
As we already have our other 2 Torana's on full reg

me too I have one torana on full rego and the other one on historics. the club i am in are excellent with the historics never had an issue. i pay enough tax to mr O'Farell.
Phillip

[Dr Terry]

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So a 186 3 on the tree factory build but now club registered HG 350 Monaro is ok even though the engine looks stock and the 9 inch was fitted in 1980 before it needed engineering? What a minefield. Good luck Dr Terry/ CMC/RTA!!

If its on the ID plate it is what it is. If its changed it's something different. Fact.

This forum spews this out every day about GTRs, XU1s, L34s, A9Xs but somehow different when it comes to h plates????

The fact is that guys want cheap rego and want the scheme to work for them so this can happen.

I don't quite get your point about the Monaro. If you're you asking if the shell from an HG GTS 350 could be used to rebuild a 186 3-sp column shift base Monaro for HCRS, then yes, I can't see why not, except that the 9-inch diff would be a no-no. The car would be RTA legal, wouldn't it ?

I think you're confusing concours authenticity with HCRS eligibility, I can't see what ID plates have to do with it.

The info that this forum "spews out" is in relation to people misrepresenting cars for resale as being something they are not. To illustrate, a replica is a good example. If done properly, a replica is perfectly OK on H plates because everyone knows it's a replica & nobody is trying to hide anything. If somebody advertises the replica as being real to gain heaps of extra $$$, that is morally & probably legally wrong.

Cheap rego is one aspect of H plates, enjoying our hobby is the main benefit, as long as everyone plays by the rules & restrictions.

Dr Terry

[enderwigginau]

It says "period accessories and options"........I could walk into my Holden dealer and order a 186 Monaro and option the 350......just cos I didn't want the V8 badges......that's and option........not every option was on the option sheets, but would be written on the sales order. If it was available for that model, it could be optioned......
That's not for arguments sake, but I just read the info sheet.

These things should only be able to be read one way, and up here it will take us more than a handful of drafts to achieve that.
As long as they understand what Options were available for a vehicle there should be lots you can legally do.

Grant..

[Dr Terry]

My concern is always insurance. Traditionally and factually an insurance company will try every avenue to not pay out.

Big Ts points could and would be tested under law with surely fascinating results.

Absolutely, I agree on the insurance point of view.

As I said earlier, the car has to be RTA legal & not have any custom work done which requires engineering certification. The car basically has to be the way the factory would have built it in the day. Where is the legal testing needed.

Do Shannons for example, have any rule regarding a replica, as long as it's not misrepresented. If you built an nice XU-1 replica using the correct bits & insured it for it's proven build cost or replacement value (say $30,000) are they going to refuse your premium payments or any eventual claims. Where are the legal issues, what is the deception ?

Dr Terry.

[Dr Terry]

The issue is simple - the boundaries narrow and widen based on interpretation. You have a view, I have a view, others have a view = minefield. There will always be an edge that creates discussion.

No right answer

Look forward to seeing you soon. Maybe Shannon's??

Yes Craig, it will be good to catch up at the Shannons ECC.

But, I don't agree on it being a minefield. As we have found in our club if any issues arise, a sensible conversation at committee level solves them before any one person's vested interest takes control. We have had Vintage/Historic rego in our club since 1992 & were probably one of the first 60s [modern clubs] to enter the Vintage/Veteran domain of the old CVVTMC (now CMC). We have had several issues arise but no dramas at the end of the day. It's usually somebody wanting to take advantage of cheap rego with a dodgy car. As I said, our club isn't silly strict with the rules, we are very 'middle of the road' & 99% of our members are happy with that. I don't believe that it's possible to keep 100% of the people happy, 100% of the time.

Dr Terry

[enderwigginau]

Well there ya go, so it does, depending on which text is read. The .pdf sheet does indeed say "period accessories or options" however the main website says "Historic vehicles manufactured 30 or more years ago are eligible for conditional registration if the operator belongs to an Roads and Maritime Services (replacing Roads and Traffic Authority)-recognised historic vehicle club, and the vehicle has not been altered except for certain safety features or period accessories. The vehicle's use of the road network is restricted to club events." - http://www.rta.nsw.g...gistration.html

It makes no mention of options in the text above. It would be most beneficial if there was consistency with both texts.

That being said, I retract my statement regarding options and at this point will bow out of the discussion and concentrate on annoying LX owners with examples of UC awesomeness elsewhere on the forum LOL !!

The way we work, and as I'm aware RMS does also, if there is a fact sheet or tech note to link to from the web page, it is more accurately the policy. You've got more spec to play with in the info sheet, or supposed to. I'm surprised they've got so much on the page itself. Just finished some systems for some specialized roadworks plant, and only gave basic outlines for the two areas and links to tech notes/application forms........

[rexy]

Its always interesting to hear the differing views on what belongs in a club re originality. Many look down their noses at mod stuff, usually the old old blokes who want to keep winning the club trophy with their untouched relic (down to the original cloth covered wiring on one memorable Packard!)
This is why I have moved on from the clubs and got to know the rod guys a bit better. They are modifiers by heart.
There has been some contention with them accepting new cars - by new they mean post 1948 - but have mostly come to accept that if they do not do this their sport will die. The cost barriers to building a rod, even a replica are prohibitive for most young blokes and gals.
So now I have a car on street rod plates in vic. No requirement for multiple meetings which dont fit in with family. No restrictions to club related events. Can drive the beast anywhere I like for 90 days a year and as long as I behave myself I will keep this privelige.
I think car clubs country wide can learn a lot from the success of this structure in victoria.
Regards.