70 replies to this topic

[Dr Terry]

I agree with Dr Terry's comments and would like to add that it also depends on the person who has the job to approve/disapprove historic registration for their club.

I looked at putting my matching number SS white hatch on historic rego with a certain club (who I won't mention) but got knocked back because I had flares and a droptank, yet other clubs are ok with that.

OK Mick, I'll pose a trick question question because I know your background & you know what I do for a living.

The fine line gets crossed when 'period accessories' become 'modifications' & 'modifications' become illegal.

I have a problem with flared guards with non-L34/A9X Toranas on historic rego because they were never available as an option or genuine accessory & owners only fit them to enclose illegally wide wheels. Even stock L34/A9X cars look silly (unless concours) siting on stock 6-inch rims so most owners of genuine cars fit 8-inch front & 10-inch rear wheels making them totally illegal in any book (because of the overly-wide track dimension). The same goes for drop tanks. They really have no place of historically registered cars, as most are badly fitted & don't fall within ADR guidelines.

If you were a club plate registrar how would you interpret the rules as they apply to your car.

Dr Terry

[lxsstorana]

OK Mick, I'll pose a trick question question because I know your background & you know what I do for a living.

The fine line gets crossed when 'period accessories' become 'modifications' & 'modifications' become illegal.

I have a problem with flared guards with non-L34/A9X Toranas on historic rego because they were never available as an option or genuine accessory & owners only fit them to enclose illegally wide wheels. Even stock L34/A9X cars look silly (unless concours) siting on stock 6-inch rims so most owners of genuine cars fit 8-inch front & 10-inch rear wheels making them totally illegal in any book (because of the overly-wide track dimension). The same goes for drop tanks. They really have no place of historically registered cars, as most are badly fitted & don't fall within ADR guidelines.

If you were a club plate registrar how would you interpret the rules as they apply to your car.

Dr Terry

If I were the club plate registrar I would allow toranas with period modifications (and some safety improvements) providing they have been fitted correctly.

So I would allow flares, drop tanks, 8 & 10 inch wheels, 4 wheel disc brakes, thermo fans etc.

I know some people would not agree with this and that is why I did not name the club or person responsible as it is there decision and I respect that.

It gets down to what you have said about interpreting the rules as they apply.

Cheers Mick.

[Dr Terry]

If I were the club plate registrar I would allow toranas with period modifications (and some safety improvements) providing they have been fitted correctly.

So I would allow flares, drop tanks, 8 & 10 inch wheels, 4 wheel disc brakes, thermo fans etc.

I know some people would not agree with this and that is why I did not name the club or person responsible as it is there decision and I respect that.

It gets down to what you have said about interpreting the rules as they apply.

Cheers Mick.

As you say, it depends on how the rule is interpreted. But there are several, points of discussion here:-

1. It is 'Historic Rego' not club rego, so the car must be somewhere near 'historically' correct.
2. As I asked earlier, at what point do accessories become modifications & some modifications then become illegal.
3. Flares look silly on LH/LX cars which don't have illegally wide wheels.
4. 8-inch & 10-inch rims were never legal on street registered Toranas, even genuine L34/A9X cars. Anything over a 7-inch rim is an instant defect from the boys in blue (I've been done too many times on that one).
5. I've not yet seen a drop tank installation that would pass muster under ADRs. While it is possible to do, many installers get lazy with the finer points like exit angles, mounting points & evaporative liquid/vapour separators etc.
6. A case could be argued that 4-wheel discs are a 'safety upgrade', but again how many installers do it correctly or even get it engineered if not using a full set of genuine (A9X or UC) parts.
7. A thermo fan could be could be considered a period accessory, again if fitted correctly.

I had a discussion recently with a guy that had been appointed the new plate registrar in his club. He took over from a guy that had been very 'loose' with the rules. He is now inspecting cars which are hideously lowered, have massively oversized & wrong motors fitted & have modern 19 & 20-inch wheels fitted. To say that he upsetting a few club members, is putting it mildly.

Dr Terry

[hanra]

So do you guys have Historic Rego and Club Rego??? If so whats the clauses for club rego and costs?

[Dr Terry]

Yes, in NSW it is called HCRS (Historic Condition Registration Scheme) & applies to unmodified vehicles only. The old scheme was basically just a permit to drive an unregistered car & they had plates which read 'Vintage Car'. It was left to the clubs to police & administer both schemes, the new one being much simpler.

There is also a Street Rod scheme for pre-48 rods & again is policed by the hotrod clubs. There are talks currently about setting up a scheme for post-48 modified cars over 30 year old (similar to HCRS), but it is caught up in the current RMS talks on engineering certification etc. This is my point about modifications, once the engineering side is sorted it will become easier to registered not just old modified cars but a modified car of any age.

As Big T has said modifications are not accessories.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

My hatch is an L20 & has a 308 in it, its on club rego.

Think hot rod rego is a bit open, more than "H" plates.

They have massive motors with blowers, "I" beam axles in T buckets, good if you can get away with it.

As I said, fitting a factory 308 in place of the L20 is not considered a modification if it was optional on that model series. LH/LX yes, UC no.

Hotrods by their nature are heavily modified, it's engineering approval & insurance where things get problematic.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Just a thought (man those things hurt) but what is to stop someone from gaining historic rego legitimately and then modding their car? Do historic cars need to be inspected yearly? Just wondering where the loop holes are thats all.......

Firstly the club has to sign off on a form before registration is renewed each year. The main 'loophole' would be a club registrar turning a blind eye each & every year.

Secondly, if your booked or defected for any obvious modification you are also charged with being unregistered, because you've broken the rules.

Dr Terry

[tsn007]

As I said, fitting a factory 308 in place of the L20 is not considered a modification if it was optional on that model series. LH/LX yes, UC no.

Hotrods by their nature are heavily modified, it's engineering approval & insurance where things get problematic.

Dr Terry

are you saying that a standard car with a LH/LX 6cyl can upgraded to V8 and still fulfil RTA rules for club rego?

Because this is the point of this thread

Edited by tsn007, 17 May 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[Dr Terry]

The fitting of a factory optional motor or gearbox using factory parts is NOT a MODIFICATION. As I said above, if you had an L20/M20 LH SL/R in very poor mechanical condition but good body & trim & you did a full resto using parts from several cars. One of those cars was a factory LH L32/M40 in excellent mechanical condition but a badly rusted body. What is illegal about fitting the entire drivetrain from the V8 car into the good body as long as all of the associated parts (larger brake booster & V8 springs for example) are also fitted. The same could be said for fitting a 307 Powerglide to an HK Premier which left the factory as a 6-cyl car. Why is this any different to fitting a 179 & auto to an EH in place of a 149 & man trans, you are using factory parts.

Some clubs may view this differently, as I said some clubs don't even allow colour or trim changes to other colours or trims which were available from the factory in that same model series. I find this a bit too strict, but it is a free country.

In my book if you are building to factory specs you are totally within the RTA rules, you are not modifying anything & you therefore require no engineering certification. It should therefore be perfectly OK for Historic rego.

"Watch your insurance company run away if you crash a historic regoed 6cyl plated car with a V8 in it. "
Craig I do not believe that body ID plates (not the ADR compliance plate) have any bearing in legal matters unless something is being misrepresented in an advertising sense. Any insurance company would be happy with any of the examples I've listed above. They only become interested when any modifications are deemed to be illegal, unsafe or not certified.

Dr Terry

[tsn007]

thank you !!!!!!!!

[Dr Terry]

Although I am not personally affected I am finding this topic quite interesting in comparing the various states club rego requirements. I guess my main interest is what will happen if\when a a national standard is adopted and which scheme will be the model used across the board.

There seems to be a lot of the decision making put into the hands of clubs which I dont entirely agree with for several reasons. The main reason being the discussiuon here in regards to the interpretation of the rules and the shit fight that could ensue should a club member prang their car. Who would be liable for a mis-interpretaion of the rules? The club or the car owner?

Im not having a go, I would just like to be fully prepared if this ever comes up for review in QLD.

Thanks Dr T for answering my questions

I don't think that it's fair to compare the Qld system with the NSW system & I think my children's children will be old & grey before a common national system is adopted.

I don't think that decision making is really is in the hands of the clubs. By the sound of it some clubs are just making up there own rules. Where does the RTA say that an optional engine or transmission is not allowed ? Body ID plates don't get a mention either. The RTA simply says "Historic vehicles manufactured 30 or more years ago are eligible for conditional registration if the operator belongs to an Roads and Maritime Services (replacing Roads and Traffic Authority)-recognised historic vehicle club, and the vehicle has not been altered except for certain safety features or period accessories. The vehicle's use of the road network is restricted to club events."

I read "not been altered" as unmodified from factory specs. Many (probably most) historic cars have been restored, so unaltered doesn't mean untouched. Unaltered to me means: unchanged from how the factory built them in the day. How many Model T Fords would be unchanged from original ? I sit on the CMC committee & that's the way they read them. I think the RTA is actually giving us some room to move here, they haven't placed a huge list of 'do nots', they just say 'unaltered'. If certain clubs place there own limitations they are free to do it, but don't blame that on the RTA rules. You are free to join another club if you find yours is too restrictive. Because of my knowledge on the subject & my position on the CMC committee I often go to various car club meeting to give talks relating to the CMC & I get more questions relating to HCRS than anything else.

It seems there a 2 separate issues here. One is that some clubs are too slack & let illegal cars onto the scheme, while at the other end of the spectrum we have clubs making up their own super strict rulings to suit themselves. I don't know what the answer is, but if we make too much noise about it, the RTA will take it out of our hands, police it themselves with the associated increase in fees & charges.

I think that the liability factory in case of a prang would fall 100% onto the owner. If a dodgy registrar lets a modified car thru & it has a prang, I believe it would be up to the owner to prove that he had not modified it after the inspection. That would be very difficult to prove without several witnesses & lots of $$$.

On another note, aren't we here to enjoy our hobby. Too many rules & the enjoyment factor disappears.

Dr Terry

[hanra]

On another note, aren't we here to enjoy our hobby. Too many rules & the enjoyment factor disappears.

Dr Terry

I was here to continue reading that great GMP&A A9X thread.... but since its gone missing Im questioning my existence...

[lxsstorana]

PS.. what did happen to the GMP&A A9X thread????

It appears it was deleted as things were getting abit hot. Maybe someone got sent to the 'naughty corner' maybe not.

[Dr Terry]

There are more V8 torana's than ever came from the factory. The amount of 6cyl than have been change to V8, would be heaps.

Ian

What's wrong with that ? As long as they're converted correctly & not misrepresented at time of sale, that's fine.