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Holden Pull Out

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#576 _oz772_

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 05:26 PM

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. However, regarding the numbers of the SS going to the US, that is purely a function of restrictions placed on the import of the car by agreements with the US unions. In other words, the 'not made here syndrome' that the Yanks suffer from. I travel to the west coast US a couple of times each month, and that is from the dealers there. I'm sure if they made them in the US, like has been mooted, the sales figures would be significantly more. Dodge Chargers and Chrysler 300's don't come close to the VF. Otherwise, carry on....

Of course if you think that the fall in sales is not a repulsion by the Australian motoring public to the big dunny then I would love to hear why GM also can't sell it in the USA even with its massive discounting program.

 

Wonder why GM says the Chev SS is a very niche product yet according to Holden wasn't this latest dunny the world class export company saviour?

 

If it was that good they would be expecting 30,000+ and no $10k discounting. Hell in the usa with demand on certain new cars they charge $10k over retail to get delivery of one. The way chev is talking doesn't give the impression that the public is going to be knocking the doors down to get into the big cheap enormous world class sedan. I mean its competition is the very very poor SRT's and anyone who has seen those pos will already have a little bit of vomit forming in their mouths.



#577 _LXSS350_

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:35 PM

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. However, regarding the numbers of the SS going to the US, that is purely a function of restrictions placed on the import of the car by agreements with the US unions. In other words, the 'not made here syndrome' that the Yanks suffer from. I travel to the west coast US a couple of times each month, and that is from the dealers there. I'm sure if they made them in the US, like has been mooted, the sales figures would be significantly more. Dodge Chargers and Chrysler 300's don't come close to the VF. Otherwise, carry on....

 

Although being made to be an issue the fact is my personal opinion on the dunny has nothing to do with why I ultimately wanted to see Holden continue manufacturing.

 

However for the love of money I am still trying to fully comprehend how Holdens aim was 30,000+pa with the VE,  but come time for the VY that number has fallen off the face of the planet and well out of mass market.

 

It has fallen into Ferrari and Lambo niche market territory. Hell the quite niche market Lambo Aventador and the Gallardo did 2000 sales together in 2012.

 

This is a $44k sedan not a $144k one.

 

Its also not in the protected pick-up truck market (half the usa market) and yet GM is saying it is happy to reach 1700-2000pa - my god Lambo has bigger numbers and the BMW did 1723 sales of the very expensive 7 series in the USA just in the month of September.

 

 

Although the Chev SS is going to be in 1500 GM dealers which is far bigger than BMW dealer numbers. Remembering GM is the no1 brand in the usa, so its a bit of a mystery how every other imported brand from dozens of other countries can sell into the USA car market and deliver far bigger numbers. Maybe the other brands (even if niche like the Germans) get better supported from their dealers in the usa?

 

Chev has not had a big rwd sedan for something like 16yrs and we all know those Chargers and 300's are shocking. I mean seriously bad, cheap and nasty. Now in the same showrooms on the same platform the whole sports car thing demoralising the ss numbers really needs a serious explanation. I mean its dramatic and with things like the 7 series in one month making the ss look poor needs GM to clarify why they have classed it as a very niche product that at betwwen 1700-2000 would be considered a success?

 

A success to what the old G8 the 458 Ferrari, the new vette. Is not this Chev SS 4 door sedan a mass market product or is $44k seen as expensive for chev??

 

Its cheaper than the two plastic junk heaps the 300c and Charger thing.

 

Something doesn't add up and your explanation although plausible on limited market in reality just doesn't make sense on the numbers all the other imported cars are selling pa in the usa?

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Edited by LXSS350, 23 December 2013 - 07:46 PM.


#578 _oz772_

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 08:18 PM

Remember a lot of those BMW's are made in factories in the US, by labour that is not controlled by the UAW. I think GM still has some constraints placed on them by the unions.

I suspect also that Americans are so sick of the crap sedans that Chev has offered them over the last couple of decades, perhaps there is a perceived risk in taking too many more. There is also the issue of possible conflict with the new Impala (despite it being another FWD over-styled thing). However, as before, I am reliably told there have been 'restraints' placed on how many they are allowed to import.

Edited by oz772, 23 December 2013 - 08:25 PM.


#579 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:08 PM

           



#580 yel327

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:52 PM

Given significantly more of the VE/F is made in Asia than was the case in VZ, maybe if there is still a demand for the large RWD the body presses and assembly jigs might get moved to Korea or even Mexico, and whatever else currently remains as manufactured here that isn't body will be made over there? What other significant parts of the VF other than the body are made here? Rear axle, V6 engine are two. Glass is no longer, tyres aren't. I guess wheels might still be. What about lights? All the interior plastics? Seats?



#581 MARKL

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 10:36 PM

LXSS350

Umm...all that stuff about the US and how 2,000 sales a year means the Commodore is crap...umm BS.

The biggest problem the Commodore has in the US is the corporate fuel averages, not demand. The SS 's sales are limited by the impact it has on the corporate average and hence it's very niche marketing in the US. Given the impact it has on fuel efficiency averages and the other US made products that Commodore sales would impact on - Corvette and Camaro, it is a miracle that GM agreed to any being sold at all.

#582 eyepeeler

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:08 PM

http://www.adelaiden...m-1226788944634

Interesting!!

#583 _LXSS350_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:01 AM

Remember a lot of those BMW's are made in factories in the US, by labour that is not controlled by the UAW. I think GM still has some constraints placed on them by the unions.

I suspect also that Americans are so sick of the crap sedans that Chev has offered them over the last couple of decades, perhaps there is a perceived risk in taking too many more. There is also the issue of possible conflict with the new Impala (despite it being another FWD over-styled thing). However, as before, I am reliably told there have been 'restraints' placed on how many they are allowed to import.

 

Doubt the bmw flagship 7 series are made in the usa, might be a few of the 3 series however that's not that important.

 

GM and Holden expected 30,000+ for the G8 (VE 2006-2013) which was on the same zeta platform.

 

We all know the story on the G8 and how GM closed it all down.

 

So the VY is a better car than the VE and obviously the path for Holden to the usa market is well known with the now defunct G8. Now if memory serves me the talk of shut-down has been around for over a decade and every-time Holden makes a big song and dance about how export would be its saviour etc. Even Abbott saying a good export deal and we can look at helping short term, we also know that Holden are not closing down till end of 2017 ----- so why the stunning fall from 30,000+ pa (from GM) right down to 1700-2000pa for the new VY. No other new imported into the usa car has suffered and been slaughter like this. Is this part of the FTA with Oz that only effects our massive oz car market?

 

Something sounds very suspect about GM not wanting to make money and fill a gap in its model range, as its the only big v8 rwd sedan that can beat the 300c and charger thing to death. I smell something very fishy in GM's  reasoning for such ultra low numbers and who the hell has ever heard of a sports car on the same platform (zeta) and pricing out selling a volume 4 door sedan that is equivalently equipped.

 

It looks like a token gesture by GM maybe so it has enough current camaro's till alfa swap over starts up.


 

Mark L

the other US made products that Commodore sales would impact on - Corvette and Camaro, it is a miracle that GM agreed to any being sold at all.

 

LOL Selling the dunny impacts on corvette and camaro sales?

What on Sales or Fuel consumption?

I have been going to the usa for at least 5 decades and I have seen and driven the mustang, viper, camaro, vette, firebird etc etc sure the vette and viper compete and the other cheaper cars compete amongst themselves for sales, but I have never ever seen any taxi having a crossover audience or look like eating into either of those customer bases.

 

To get someone coming in for a 2 door coupe aka the camaro its highly unlikely they will walk out with an SS and forget they came for a camaro.

 

Sorry that's not something that happens. Enormous logistical and physical differences between a taxi and a coupe for any crossover. Look at the dunny taxi vs dunny coupe enormously different market. Not to mention the camaro's are cheap and start at $24k, the middle 426hp SS is at $33k, even the top line zl-1 580hp camaro is only priced at $54k.

 

 

Most new Camaro owners in the usa don't crossover to vette as its priced much higher. Vette is only 13000 vs 85,000 for camaro.

 

Hell look at the LX hatch numbers vs LX taxi numbers never will a 2 door be the volume. Same with HQ/HJ/HX or XA,XB,XC etc etc

 

Well unless its zeta platform and camaro vs the dunny taxi


Edited by LXSS350, 24 December 2013 - 12:13 AM.


#584 _Lazarus_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:43 AM

The Yanks aren't into performance 4 doors.

 

Never have been afaik.

 

There were never 4 door Camaros, Chargers or Mustangs.

 

Only the cops got special order ones didn't they ? (As in big block 4 doors)

 

 

 

 

 

 

.


Edited by GTR - U9X, 24 December 2013 - 12:44 AM.


#585 _LXSS350_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:02 AM

Yanks are all two doors for performance. Your right mostly they never get many performance 4 doors although Cadillac have done them. He (mark) is talking CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) legislation but that's been law since the 70's and was in place when the 30,000 G8's based on the VE so now with the volt and other small efficient cars the GM margins on its big v8 sales are far better than they where with Pontiac and the G8.



#586 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:40 AM

LXSS350

Umm...all that stuff about the US and how 2,000 sales a year means the Commodore is crap...umm BS.

The biggest problem the Commodore has in the US is the corporate fuel averages, not demand. The SS 's sales are limited by the impact it has on the corporate average and hence it's very niche marketing in the US. Given the impact it has on fuel efficiency averages and the other US made products that Commodore sales would impact on - Corvette and Camaro, it is a miracle that GM agreed to any being sold at all.

As said, the Commodore would not impact on Corvette buyers, and probably not on a Camaro buyer either, aside from the small percentage that might actually have kids and plans to ever take them along as the rear seat in the Camaro, as has been in the previous generate is pretty much just for looks.

As for the previous Commodore here, the G8...the biggest problem with that was GM itself I think. The car had terrible advertising/push here. Alot of people still have no idea what they even were or that they were sold here period. The people that had actually ever been in one or driven one did like them as there was not much to compare them with in a RWD platform here (like a Crown Vic for example) buy can't expect a car to sell by magic basically.

#587 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:48 AM

The Yanks aren't into performance 4 doors.
 
Never have been afaik.
 
There were never 4 door Camaros, Chargers or Mustangs.
 
Only the cops got special order ones didn't they ? (As in big block 4 doors)
 
 
 
 
 
 
.

Big block 4 doors were around 'back in the day'. Mopar had them (including 4 door 426 Hemi cars even, but quite rare.) 'Normal' big block ones were around no problem though. Same for big block 4 door Impalas even.. I had shipped a 396 powered sedan some years ago for a mate.

But as already said...we were never really a more-door performance type car country. (The supercharged Cadillac sedans are pretty cool though for what they are though :) )

#588 _LXSS350_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 03:44 AM

Jeff what is the current situation with the Chev SS advertising and dealer promotion, usa press etc. Especially your thoughts on it in comparison to the last time with Pontiac and the G8. You know your market far better than us and have seen imports come and go, what do you think about GM's 1700-2000 Chev SS per year? Surely they can sell a hell of a lot more than that? Do you think GM is playing silly buggers or do you think that's a realistic sales target? 2000 cars pa in usa terms is very very small and even I don't think the Chev SS should sell that small a number

 

 

 

 

On the CAFE

With the VY selling as a chev it would workout like the camaro so it would be at 16/24mpg

 

This may help put  CAFE into some sort of relativity for those not up with this somewhat complex usa system.

 

Through a complicated formula that accounts for various models, weights, and the size or “footprint” of each car, the U.S. government derives a single mileage number for each carmaker—dubbed the Corporate Average Fuel Economy—CAFE for acronym lovers.

 

The current standard falls around 26 miles per gallon for a combined fleet of cars and light trucks. Under this complex regulatory net, a company that is selling too many gas guzzlers and not enough fuel-sipping compacts faces steep fines. Meanwhile, carmakers that beat their number can book credits to sell or use later. Not only do hybrid cars like the Volt score great mileage points in the federal system, but also in a few years each one will count as two vehicles thanks to a generous loophole in the latest rules.

To date, the penalties have fallen inordinately on foreign carmakers that haven’t been too worried about pushing small, efficient models to U.S. buyers. Uncle Sam just collected a handsome $16.3 million check from Mercedes (DAI:GR), because the company was so focused on über-sedans it blew right by its mileage limit.



#589 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 05:50 AM

I can't remember seeing any advertising so far off hand for the SS ?

I know the LAX cops are using them though, that is the only place off hand I have seen them, lol.

2000 per year could be sold to law enforcement probably you'd think nearly, let alone the 'public'

But sure has not been a push for them. As compared to Chev truck commercials which you see constantly, and Camaro ones pretty often as well (Corvettes even too) on telly that is, along with the Volt some too. I can't speak for print ads, as who reads magazines any more with the internet ? ha ha. Do hear truck commercials on the radio too come to think of it.

#590 Dr Terry

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 07:35 AM

Notice to Mr LXSS350

 

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or it's just several dozen typos, but the current Commodore (note the spelling) is the VF series not VY, as you've continually named it. The VY came before the VZ back in 2002-04.

 

Dr Terry



#591 Dr Terry

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 07:41 AM


I know the LAX cops are using them though, that is the only place off hand I have seen them, lol.

2000 per year could be sold to law enforcement probably you'd think nearly, let alone the 'public'

 

Are these LA cop cars SSs or are they Caprices ? When I was in the US last year, Caprice cop cars were everywhere on the east coast.

 

I was under the impression that the Caprice PPV was especially built for this purpose, & gets under the UAW rules because it is built to govt. order only.

 

Dr Terry



#592 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 08:33 AM

They could have been Caprices, I haven't been along side one yet actually...just seen them through a traffic jam of cars so far. (They tend to be parked all along the terminals, and soon as I drop off I dart to the left lane to get around the traffic. Just can notice the VF shape at least.

#593 _oz772_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 08:52 AM

Police Vehicles are Caprices. Lots in LA. even the police on the airfield at LAX are changing over to them now.

Edited by oz772, 24 December 2013 - 08:53 AM.


#594 MARKL

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:00 AM

Fuel economy figure for SS will be slightly higher than Camaro. For the deliberately difficult my point with the corporate fuel economy is that Chev already have there order books full for cars that don't meet CAFE - new corvette and Camaro. Sales of Camaro and Corvette are therefore limited by sales of Volt and other economy cars that Chev sells. Unless Chev wants to pay fines they can only sell a limited number of cars that don't meet the requirement, given the choice if you were Chev what would you sell - there two made in America hero cars or the imported car from Australia? And that is how SS sales impact corvette and Camaro sales. Like I said in the whole business scheme of things it is a miracle that Chev is prepared to sell any at all.

#595 _nowaynicko_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:27 AM

LXSS350

 

Whilst they aren't answering the phone in the call centre your highly skilled friends in Chennai, India are spewing out 7 series.

 

As well as the rest of the BMW line up.



#596 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:45 AM

And now surely after 24 pages, we can see, that all these things everyone has posted, are the things that when added together,  have led GM & H to Pull Out of Australia.    Governments failure to protect our car industry by means of a fair Tariff system, also their failure to invest in the future of Australian manufacturing(they chose to invest in Mining)  our $18 per head, compared to $216 in America, and $360 in Sweden, shows how little we the Tax Payer pays to support an industry we all are better of by having it.  The Unions also need to show restraint, wages are one thing, but some conditions can put pressure on a Companies ability to be profitable. Same goes for CEO's and Management.  GM & H's decision to Import cheap Asian cars re-badged as Holden's,  instead of making their own small & mid sized cars here, right along side the Family sized Commodore. And we the Australian Public, who are so busy watching Cooking Shows or Football to realize that Australia is being either, Dug Up and Sold, or Under Valued and no investment provided.  I too have been very apathetic to what has been going on. I buy from overseas on the Internet, because price does matter, and with no Tax or Tariff to pay, i would say i'm not alone...     But as I said, you all have had valid points (except LXSS350, he's got no idea, just stuck on Marketing & size....  OK we got it. FFS..) it took all these thing's and more to destroy our Automotive Industry.   and as others have tried to say..... "I hope we can learn something from this"  I hope we have too ...................   Merry Xmas Everyone ...  cheers Ian


Edited by ChaosWeaver, 24 December 2013 - 10:47 AM.


#597 _oz772_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:47 AM

LXSS350
 
Whilst they aren't answering the phone in the call centre your highly skilled friends in Chennai, India are spewing out 7 series.
 
As well as the rest of the BMW line up.


BMW Spartanburg factory in the US produces X3, X5, X6 and Z4 models for the world, not just the US. It has also been upgraded to be able to build all sedans up to the 7 series and the Mini as well I believe. And dare I say, all without prohibitive union involvement.

#598 _Lazarus_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:51 AM

So guys have we finally reached an agreement ?

 

 

Is there a whale in the dunny or not ?

 

 

I'm too scared to look...



#599 eyepeeler

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:32 PM

So guys have we finally reached an agreement ?
 
 
Is there a whale in the dunny or not ?
 
 
I'm too scared to look...

LOL.... I was guessing the dunny was flushed?

#600 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:34 PM

Fuel economy figure for SS will be slightly higher than Camaro. For the deliberately difficult my point with the corporate fuel economy is that Chev already have there order books full for cars that don't meet CAFE - new corvette and Camaro. Sales of Camaro and Corvette are therefore limited by sales of Volt and other economy cars that Chev sells. Unless Chev wants to pay fines they can only sell a limited number of cars that don't meet the requirement, given the choice if you were Chev what would you sell - there two made in America hero cars or the imported car from Australia? And that is how SS sales impact corvette and Camaro sales. Like I said in the whole business scheme of things it is a miracle that Chev is prepared to sell any at all.

Aside from the Corvette, what other made here in America car is a hero car ? (Some trucks are still built here, but they are not a "car" of course)

Camaros are built in Canada...




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