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p plate laws in NSW

Started by _Chamois hatch_ , May 01 2007 12:35 AM

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93 replies to this topic

#26 _jake_

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:38 PM

i think a defensive driving course would be fun

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#27 _ozbox_

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 04:53 PM

just as a reply to the original post on restrictions...my son was disqualified by the courts for 6 months 1 month ago and he just received a letter from the rta saying that he is now restricted to the new laws when he gets his licence back...engine size and passengers.....this applies to any p plate holder red or green if disqualified by the courts....he is not happy :cry:

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#28 _Chamois hatch_

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 06:52 PM

bugger^

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#29 _mike_nofx_

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 07:37 PM

Jbird - ive done a defensive driving course...

and Chamois, that old woman wasnt necessarily taking a photo for a license. could have been in there getting a disabled ID so her daughter could drive her around and park in disabled parks.

Or just getting a proof of age/identity card... who knows

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#30 _JBird_

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 08:58 PM

Hey Mike, my comment didn't include you - It was made in reference to other comments that implied that defensive driving courses weren't worthwhile.

I can't speak more highly of them.

Chamois hatch - Eastern Creek do driver training courses. Stage 1 involves this:

This course will help you to develop techniques through both theory and practical teachings, techniques covered during the day include:

* ABS Braking
* Traction Control (ESP/ DSC)
* Safe driving in both wet and dry conditions
* Managing loss of control situations
* General road safety

costs $220. Would be helpful if the government gave subsidies.....

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#31 _tyre fryer_

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 09:26 PM

alot of discussion today with heaps of people at school today. we're all getting our P's soon. and I realised there is a huge difference between doing the 'vort' (vehicle on road test) which I did. and the 'log book' where the instructors ticks off random things over a series of lessons.
my instructor hates log book and refuses to use that method, because as he said 'everybody passes' not only that but they get no experince actually driving in a full on drive situation. A girl at my school just got her P's from this log book method and then she said to me today "I'm not confident driving on the road' WHY DOES SHE HAVE A LICENSE?!?! :fool:

not only that but after I questioned her ability to drive someone told me that less than a month ago she went around a round about the wrong way!!!! but it didnt matter, because in log book you can't lose points, only gain them. I think this is rediculous. I just passed my test on sunday and am going to pick up my P's lisence tomorrow. I know how to safely brake. I was thoroughly taught 'early breaking' and I know how to negotiate corners. I don't imagine I'll be a really good driver till 10-20 yrs have passed. but atleast I have some experience unlike most people I talk to who did log book and athat are just learning the basics while they're on the road WITH THEIR P'S!
my two cents.
p.s. Adelaide people need to come for a cruise soon.

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#32 RIM-010

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:06 PM

Dude, I've organised a cruise this weekend, but the numbers are now down to 3 :cry:

Tim

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#33 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 11:59 PM

If I could be bothered finding the statistics I would. But even when you COMPENSATE for the increase in P platers on the roads, the deaths have increased after the restrictions were put in place, in the same time period. Meaning that these restrictions have done NOTHING. The problem with the L's to P's transition is that a lot of parents (who do most of the oversighting for the 50 hours now 120 hours) don't teach their kids to respect the car, but to respect to the insurance policy.

This is a typical example of a L plater.

James is an L plater, he is forced to drive 50 in a 60 zone, because his dad is scared he will stick the car. During his whole time he "learns" the car is driven like a granny. He is constantly told not to ever crash, he is never exposed to any emergency situations.

....

James now has his P's. He drives for the first time and regularly checks his speedo to /make sure he is under. Not paying attention to the road, he will most likely swerve to avoid something and slam the brakes to stop. Unsettling the vehicle and losing traction at the same time, sliding him into a pole.

JBird, I think your opinion and fact may differ here.

Possibly the correct stats would be revealing, however, just because deaths increased after the restrictions were introduced doesnt mean the restrictions had no effect. Perhaps the restrictions stopped the death rate from being even higher.......and the increase was for other reasons..... I don't know.......
ABS brakes have been hailed as a great advance in safety, but many authorities and studies overseas have found no reduction in the accident rate with such vehicles. The simple analysis of the stats says abs brakes have no effect......, but this is quite a common occurence when vehicles or roads are made safer, many people drive to a perceived risk level.......ie they have abs brakes they feel they can follow closer in the wet etc. They have done an advanced driving course, they can drive faster, follow closer etc.

Your prediction of James the L plater is fanciful, cars that authorities scrape of poles dont get there by losing control driving 10kmh below the limit.
If you drive sensibly and within the speed limits being exposed to an emergency situation is an extremely rare event. Having L platers drive around fast enough so that they get themselves into emergency situations sounds like Russian roulette to me. While perhaps my own experience may not be typical, Ive possibly driven over 1M km and have only ever had to apply the brakes fully on one occasion.

Edited by devilsadvocate, 03 May 2007 - 12:02 AM.

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#34 _Flamenco_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:23 AM

Small capacity Turbo vehicles have been taken off the restrictions list. E.g Suzuki Cappucino which has a tyre ripping 46kw or something.

Don't bag my daily, lol!

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#35 _TJ253_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:31 AM

Lol devil interesting.... But cars are safer today driver training is more intense
my old man went up and down the road for his car licence in a police car thats it
*qoute ie. they have abs brakes they feel they can follow closer in the wet etc. They have done an advanced driving course, they can drive faster, follow closer etc. * lol Wonder what it would of been like in the 70s 80s the whole Muscle car thing Race on sunday sell on monday No RBTs No radars easy licence tests ive heard endless stories of speeding from the older generation and so much more. We have come along way Thing is When will it stop and will it go to far that driving wont be fun anymore and just a means of transport

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#36 _Garry_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:20 AM

Chamois Hatch, interesting read of the issues that you started and without going into any detail my lovely better half is one of those RTA people and she is never confident that a newly licenced driver is necessarily safe to be let loose into the traffic.

As in life we are all different and we have perceptions as to our abilities with our vehicles, perceprions that are mostly well beyond the truth and it is for these reasons we sometimes find ourselves in trouble at the wheel.

I am now in my mid 50's and constantly question my driving skills, something I never did when I was younger. I would be terrified if I tried some of the stunts now that I did when I was younger.

I believe that I have a greater respect for the road now because I rode a lot of k's on motorcycles when I was younger and without the stability of four wheels under me I hit the ground, cars etc and found out what pain was all about and how life is a lot better than the other option.

I survived my early rider/driver years but a mumber of my mates did not, one mate died the day he got his licence, killed under the rear wheels of a dump truck in a Ford Zodiac!!! no great power machine there.

I dont know what the answer is to the problem of P plate drivers, my sons have thankfully managed to get onto their Black Licences but when I travel with them I quickly remember what fear is, youth is oblivious to fear!

Dont get me wrong I dont agree with the current spate of driver licencing laws in NSW either but as long as we all sit back and whinge about them and actually do nothing the misinfomred do gooders and public servants will keep dishing up bizarre legislation that is greatfully accepted by the State Governement because it looks like they are doing something and the real truth is they are raising revenue, a lot of it for a bankrupt Government.

P Platers recently had the opportunity to send a message to the NSW Government and the Opposition through the ballot box, but playing one out as individuals and not orgnaising themselves as say the cyclists have we all got the Government we deserve returnded.

Now I dont care what political pursuasion you follow but if you have grief with legislation the only way to make it change is to use politics to change the situation and if every P plater in NSW who was old enough to vote had said I've had enough of this crap and organised themselves they would have been a huge political lobby group and could have pressured both sides of the political spectrum to reassess their treatment. A golden opportunity lost of what is effectively a very silent and large body of people. So no more whining either do something about it or put up with it!

Old bastard! :blink:

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#37 orangeLJ

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 09:50 AM

but who actually has the time to organise something so large? it wouldnt be a payed situation, and it would most likely be a full time thing. it really needs an older person or politicians backing to act as a figure head that may gain some respect from the older people. Yes it would need to involve majority younger (p platers) people. But as i said the majority of those who have the brains and all to organise something like this have jobs or uni or something like that.

CHRIS

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#38 _JBird_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:13 PM

Fair enough Devils, it was only used as an example to make a point.

Devils, you and I know that it is hard to dissect statistics. Some of those <25 deaths an <25 may not have been driving, merely passenger to their 60 year old parents or something. So it is hard to say, however I honestly believe that restrictions have made little difference to reducing P plate deaths - comparing two figures might help but like I said statistics sometimes lie. It comes down to a matter of fairness.

Perhaps restrictions have lessened the toll, perhaps they haven't. In the cases where it hasn't there is still a common trend to why they died. Speed and a curve in the road. You can't stop people from speeding, even "slow" cars can get up to 140, but you can teach people how to negotiate with understeer/oversteer etc. I think not much is being done to improve driver skill which could potentially lessen the road toll.

One could also argue that restrictions have forced "hoons" into unsafer cars that don't have the handling characteristics that could save their life. E.g instead of driving a AWD WRX they buy a Toyota camry, however because they drive like a dick they lose it and die. Example only to make a point.

Edited by JBird, 03 May 2007 - 12:14 PM.

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#39 MRLXSS

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 12:31 PM

Here is something else to look at.

Particularly this quote.

Drivers over 60 are also vulnerable. Last year, 111 drivers aged between 17 and 20 died on the nation's roads, compared with 153 drivers aged over 60. Will police soon be enforcing double demerits to elderly jay-walkers and confiscating walking sticks? Will current affairs TV shows broadcast spy footage of elderly "hoons" not indicating, driving the wrong way up one-way streets and blithely flouting road rules?

It's time more attention was given to the appalling efforts of everyday drivers and we stopped picking on P-platers in order to make ourselves feel good.

Edited by 253ToranaSS, 03 May 2007 - 12:32 PM.

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#40 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:03 PM

In the cases where it hasn't there is still a common trend to why they died. Speed and a curve in the road. You can't stop people from speeding, even "slow" cars can get up to 140, but you can teach people how to negotiate with understeer/oversteer etc. I think not much is being done to improve driver skill which could potentially lessen the road toll.

JBird, I think this is where our ideologies differ. Recovering a car from a slide at 140kmh going into a corner is something best left to racing and rally car drivers.......even they get it wrong. The best defense for the average motorist is to not be going that fast in the 1st place, yes you can stop them from speeding....(punitive consequences for those that do is about the only answer at present).............unless we identify those that are likely to flaunt the rules.
Psychologists wouldnt have too much trouble putting a test together that would identify those who would choose to defy suggested restrictions......I reckon I can tell just by looking at them! Ah, but that would be an abuse of civil liberties.

Drivers over 60 are also vulnerable. Last year, 111 drivers aged between 17 and 20 died on the nation's roads, compared with 153 drivers aged over 60. Will police soon be enforcing double demerits to elderly jay-walkers and confiscating walking sticks? Will current affairs TV shows broadcast spy footage of elderly "hoons" not indicating, driving the wrong way up one-way streets and blithely flouting road rules?

It's time more attention was given to the appalling efforts of everyday drivers and we stopped picking on P-platers in order to make ourselves feel good.

Dont know about the accuracy of the stats, all it shows is that older drivers have a high chance of dying..........and perhaps what was being pointed out there was the fragility of older persons in collisions(particularly side impact collisions), where its something like the injuries sustained by an elderly person will be 3 times more severe(however they measure it) than for a younger person

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#41 _TORANASS_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:23 PM

The stats are done worng!

They should be counting the amount of collisions and accidents caused by different age groups and not the deaths.

I hit a tree on my dirt bike at 80kph and im still here, if a 60 year old man did the same he wouldnt have been so lucky.

John

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#42 Bazza

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:29 PM

Dont know about the accuracy of the stats, all it shows is that older drivers have a high chance of dying..........and perhaps what was being pointed out there was the fragility of older persons in collisions(particularly side impact collisions), where its something like the injuries sustained by an elderly person will be 3 times more severe(however they measure it) than for a younger person.

Hi

I agree with everything that DA says:

Bald stats don't prove anything:

A cynic might say that some of the 153 aged drivers deaths may have been caused by some of the 111 younger drivers?

And even if all of the older drivers deaths were their own fault - who is to say that they may be still alive if the authorities had cracked down harder in thier earlier driving careers.

Bazza

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#43 _JBird_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 01:37 PM

Statistics can be deceiving.

With more drivers on the road every day, the government should be proactively making each new generation of drivers (P platers) safer drivers. Driver training helps.

Speeding is hard to stop without resorting to draconian measures and fines that average people can not pay. P plate restrictions is bad enough. Imagine if they banned everyone from Hi-Po cars, who is the RTA to judge if you are competent enough to handle V8/Turbo or not.

Having better drivers in any road situation will help reduce the road toll. I would be more comfortable on the road if the majority of road users were at an acceptable standard.

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#44 MRLXSS

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 02:04 PM

While perhaps my own experience may not be typical, Ive possibly driven over 1M km and have only ever had to apply the brakes fully on one occasion.

So are you the Perfect model citizen for our society DA? Do you ever make mistakes? I would love you follow you around for a day just to be just like you!

i think your my hero...

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#45 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 02:44 PM

Thanks for ^ 253toranass, but Im not sure if you really understood the point I was making.........safe driving is more about attitude rather than using any advanced skill(s) to keep a car out of trouble.(in my experience)

Having better drivers in any road situation will help reduce the road toll. I would be more comfortable on the road if the majority of road users were at an acceptable standard.

Jbird I agree, but a better driver is going to be the one that abides by all the reasonable laws and speed postings and is going to be safer than the one who flaunts them.......hopefully thats what some(advanced) driving courses emphasise when they have people jump on the brakes from 60kmh and compare the extra distances with 70kmh etc.

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#46 RIM-010

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 02:59 PM

For someone of your supposed intellectuality, DA, I would've thought you'd know that it's km/h, not kmh...

Tim

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#47 _JBird_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 03:02 PM

DA you are talking about a perfect world where nobody speeds.

But I am glad we agree. Yes it would be better if nobody sped etc. but thats not the case and I would rather new license getters are forced to do driver training or at the very least subsidised in the mean time. Introducing longer hours into log books will do nothing if all 120 hours was spent highway cruising or grocery runs.

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#48 _Flamenco_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 03:13 PM

I (personally) think any extra time spent learning driving skills is a good thing... Everyone's going to make mistakes but I think driving is just like any other activity - 'practice makes perfect' (or better!). For me driving around the city areas when I first got my 'P's' was a good way to anticipate the stupid things people do on the roads everyday, because it happens around there far more often

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#49 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 May 2007 - 03:16 PM

For someone of your supposed intellectuality, DA, I would've thought you'd know that it's km/h, not kmh...

Tim

Got me there Rim(ive been corrupted).....glad youve taken one of my previous lectures in......do as I say, not as I do........

JBird, I think in this imperfect world there is a better chance of getting people to drive at the right speed than to be able to succesfully correcting a slide through a corner at 140kmh........dont think Id have a chance!

Edited by devilsadvocate, 03 May 2007 - 03:17 PM.