Plenty of four speeds that are cheap and reliable, Toploaders, single rails, muncie,saginore (cant spell for shite) M21 s are probably OK these days with the good internals that are available, thanks to the Nc boys.
Group C/A Replica Racing - There must be a way!
Started by
Racehatch
, Nov 12 2007 06:16 PM
345 replies to this topic
#52
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:12 AM
Good brakes are not that expensive if you do a bit of homework. Ive got 4 piston R32 GTR skyline calipers, Hq rotors for the front, commodore discs on the rear with a commodore VK booster and 1inch mastercylinder and all the braided lines for around $1200. Group C oringinal type brakes are probably not available anymore, or if you can find them worth a packet.
#53
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:37 AM
You need to get me the template for the mounting bracket on these GTR 4 spots Rod.Still dont know if they will fit under the 15" Simmons and Challengers though.
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#54
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:49 AM
Has anyone got a link for the group c and a regs?
We could certainly base it on the original regs and just free up the areas that make it cost prohibitive as described... The trans/diff suggestions sound fair to me, re the wheels, dont see a problem there, as long as we set restrictions on disc and caliper spec to stop people running exotic setups. The engine regs will be the hardest to sort I feel, there are pluses and minuses to going too open or too restrictive in that area cost vs performance... Will require some discussion from poeple knowledable in that area.
I think Rory hit the nail on the head with his comments regarding the whole vibe thing, we really want to create something that will put on a good show for the spectators, in cars that are as close as practically possible to the real thing, and keep that relaxed pit atmosphere where everyone helps each other, leave the sheep station thing for the cheque book racers..
We could certainly base it on the original regs and just free up the areas that make it cost prohibitive as described... The trans/diff suggestions sound fair to me, re the wheels, dont see a problem there, as long as we set restrictions on disc and caliper spec to stop people running exotic setups. The engine regs will be the hardest to sort I feel, there are pluses and minuses to going too open or too restrictive in that area cost vs performance... Will require some discussion from poeple knowledable in that area.
I think Rory hit the nail on the head with his comments regarding the whole vibe thing, we really want to create something that will put on a good show for the spectators, in cars that are as close as practically possible to the real thing, and keep that relaxed pit atmosphere where everyone helps each other, leave the sheep station thing for the cheque book racers..
#55
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:54 AM
Rory, Ive made the brackets for a few cars now, I can send you a template.You have to use a 10 mm spacer with 15in simmons, but 14 in hotwires fit straight on, and I use challengers to tow the car around and they fine.
#56
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:03 AM
Rory if you're getting the template for the calipers from Rod, find out how much to make another set for me please
#57
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 10:15 AM
Rory/ Darren or anyone that wants the details, Send me a email to [email protected] and Ill send you the pics of the set up with all the details.
#58
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 11:34 AM
Some stuff here.Has anyone got a link for the group c and a regs?
http://www.cams.com....tins/B02-56.pdf
1973 here http://www.groupc.or...bility/1973.pdf
1974 http://www.groupc.or...bility/1974.pdf
1984 http://www.groupc.or.../1984 specs.pdf
or Section 8-37 of CAMS manual.
R
#59
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 11:47 AM
Good response Sam, looks like a winner.
#60
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 03:30 PM
Wow you guys are really on the ball. Anyone need pit crew members when you guys decide to race in Sydney?? Me and my mates would be willing and able!!
The plan sounds really good and will definently bring more spectators to the track, like the Biante series but better!!!!!
The plan sounds really good and will definently bring more spectators to the track, like the Biante series but better!!!!!
#61
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 03:41 PM
Always good to get some help at the track when needed, maybe Bathurst at easter, if you arent busy. Thanks.
#62
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Posted 13 November 2007 - 05:44 PM
^ So Rocket i take it you have an acceptance from the FOSC for bathurst ?
Bugger!!! I missed out on the IPRA Grid.
Cheers Greg
Bugger!!! I missed out on the IPRA Grid.
Cheers Greg
#63
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Posted 14 November 2007 - 05:21 AM
Well Im hoping, they asked for all my details, or is that just a standard thing?
#64
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Posted 14 November 2007 - 05:39 PM
I am OK with 16s for slick fitment/availability...just need to restrict them to 8" wide..The 355 story...dont know...do you allow 355 Holdens and 383 Fords?... Needs discussion..I am happy to redo the motor at 308..or get a second one..At the end of the day you need to understand if someone runs a 355 of 383..How will you know unless he smokes the field?..It easy to get out front and back off...then we head down the protest road ..paying for the heads to come off to measure...which is exactly what we dont want as it is not in the spirit of the class...I wont mention Biante but there were suspicions of similiar things happening there..Anyone that runs Conrod at 297kph in a 1969 supposed 350 Camaro would have raise eyebrows for me..Greg knows what I mean. (Then get a 3 month holiday from CAMS with no explanation at all...this is what we dont want to see....)I agree with Rocket on the rim size upgrade for toranas, Rory I dont want to get rid of my 255/50/16's toyo's
in 15's the choice isnt that great , As much as the 355 engine for my car sounds good, I agree it might make it unfair for people with less horsepower/cubes-Rory's engine is almost built though....free gearboxes and diffs sounds good-for reliability and cost too, big price difference between a full floater 10bolt diff compared to a 9inch or borg warner diff.
R
#65
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Posted 14 November 2007 - 11:13 PM
Yeah I think we're at the point where we need to sit down with the regs and go through them and get something on paper, have a look and discuss.
Been thinking about the engine side of things, and I agree, it will be hard to police a standard stroke engine, at the end of the day, the guy that has the best all round package will be up the front either way, and as mentioned we dont want to make it too hard to police, I'd rather spend more time on the track then stuffing around in the sheds measuring people's engines. Maybe as long as the same engine block is used (as the car being replicated) and let everyone work around that?
It seems sports sedans is almost dead in Adelaide, only 2 cars entered at the next state round and they they are not even full house cars.. So we would have the grid pretty much to ourselves (or get lumped with sports cars or similar). Gotta love sleepy Adelaide..haha Just got to try and get more locals interested in the idea.
Been thinking about the engine side of things, and I agree, it will be hard to police a standard stroke engine, at the end of the day, the guy that has the best all round package will be up the front either way, and as mentioned we dont want to make it too hard to police, I'd rather spend more time on the track then stuffing around in the sheds measuring people's engines. Maybe as long as the same engine block is used (as the car being replicated) and let everyone work around that?
It seems sports sedans is almost dead in Adelaide, only 2 cars entered at the next state round and they they are not even full house cars.. So we would have the grid pretty much to ourselves (or get lumped with sports cars or similar). Gotta love sleepy Adelaide..haha Just got to try and get more locals interested in the idea.
#66
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Posted 14 November 2007 - 11:47 PM
Maybe its a casting 304/308 for Holdens and 351 for Fords...after that...you are on your own??..A 383 Holden is going to grenade in a constant race situation anyway..so that brings it back to 355 and 383 Fords,...if any Fords turn up that is.
R
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#67
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 05:38 AM
Maybe just go for the original block/head casting thing and dont worry about who has a stroker, Im really only doing it for the fun, dont really care about winning or losing, just having a good time, catching up with fellow racers. You could always reverse the grid after the first run and so on. Im going to Morgan Pk one Wednesday before xmas, for some practice and setting up, maybe if theres anyone in Qld interested in going we can sit down and have a chat about it all and get some ideas together to bring forward, and you guys in the other states could do a similar thing, then we put it all together. Lets not get to serious and just have fun in our cars without wrecking them or breaking them from going to hard. What are your views on that ?
#68
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 05:42 AM
Rod let me know when you're testing your car next, im keen to come for a look and a chat again. Thanks for the email regarding the calipers/brakes too 
#69
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 09:07 AM
No problem Darren, Ill let you know, probably in about 4 weeks.
#70
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 10:17 AM
Dunno how i missed this thread over the last few days. Looks like you guys have been busy.
I like the replica Group C/A class, if its doable for cheap i reckon it would be a lot of fun.
Does that mean i need to get my hands on a 186+m20 to race with you guys in the LC Coupe? Maybe i just say my bonnets jamed, and its running on 5 cylinders.
Steve
I like the replica Group C/A class, if its doable for cheap i reckon it would be a lot of fun.
Does that mean i need to get my hands on a 186+m20 to race with you guys in the LC Coupe? Maybe i just say my bonnets jamed, and its running on 5 cylinders.
Steve
#71
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 10:57 AM
Maybe i just say my bonnets jamed, and its running on 5 cylinders.
That reminds me of fangin' around in my old HQ. One of the spark plug leads came off somehow and me and my mates just kept driving, wondering how all of a sudden out bog stock 173 started to sound like a cammed V8
If there was a track closer to home I'd be keen to have a go at this... Until then Dirt Circuit will suit me fine
Tim
#72
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 11:03 AM
wow i have missed this thread the last few days too, and i think its a great idea! altho would they have to be replicas? could we run our own paint scheme and signage?
I am another young bloke tryin to get out racing my car and have been setting it up for the circuit and trying to find some stuff to race in and this would be great to do, but im already out of it with the regs u have drawn up so far, with 9.5 inch wide wheels on the back and 17" diameter, 330mm rotors (using PBR twin piston calipers - so not exotic) and i have a 5 speed track gearbox. i dont want to go back and change all those things so could there be a sub category for bigger rotors/wheels/tyres and g/boxes? or an allowance for this in the rules or something like that (btw car is a 75 LH SL 308)
I am another young bloke tryin to get out racing my car and have been setting it up for the circuit and trying to find some stuff to race in and this would be great to do, but im already out of it with the regs u have drawn up so far, with 9.5 inch wide wheels on the back and 17" diameter, 330mm rotors (using PBR twin piston calipers - so not exotic) and i have a 5 speed track gearbox. i dont want to go back and change all those things so could there be a sub category for bigger rotors/wheels/tyres and g/boxes? or an allowance for this in the rules or something like that (btw car is a 75 LH SL 308)
#73
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 01:58 PM
Hey guys,
Good to see more interest from people
Steve, I can just see the little lc done up in early HDT colours! We havnt really discussed the pre 73 cars as of yet, so not sure but I reckon the 186 would be a safe bet.
VK_Torana, would be great to get blokes like you coming out, re you questions, we havnt really decided on max wheel size as yet, but as we want to try and keep the group c theme it will prob only be 16" max (which is still larger than was used at the time), but if we can get enough interest, then maybe other groups could be created down the track.
If I get some spare time this weekend, I might sit down with the existing rules and start amending them, and we'll see what everyone thinks.
Good to see more interest from people
Steve, I can just see the little lc done up in early HDT colours! We havnt really discussed the pre 73 cars as of yet, so not sure but I reckon the 186 would be a safe bet.
VK_Torana, would be great to get blokes like you coming out, re you questions, we havnt really decided on max wheel size as yet, but as we want to try and keep the group c theme it will prob only be 16" max (which is still larger than was used at the time), but if we can get enough interest, then maybe other groups could be created down the track.
If I get some spare time this weekend, I might sit down with the existing rules and start amending them, and we'll see what everyone thinks.
#74
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 02:10 PM
Hi All,
This sounds like it could be a real goer. A couple of things to keep in mind when framing the rules if you want to go the Group C replica route (I'll keep this to an a9x as I know them pretty well):
-15" slicks are hard to get and are dearer than 16" slicks.
-If you do run slick then you will need 2 carry a second set of rims for wets as well a you would need to buy a set of wet tyres straight away - so that is $3,000 or more for a set of rims and tyres you may never use.
-Do you allow magnesium wheels - a little lighter and a lot dearer.
-If you run any diff, would you make it a full floater as it is a lot safer and a lot quicker to change the ratios. Also, don't use a 10 bolt as ratios are really hard to get and they are only available second hand.
-Keep the gearbox as a 4 speed.
-Would you make it manditory that you had to run the A9X rear floor pan?
-What engine do you run? L34 Group C spec at $15,000 for 400hp or a 4 bolt VN block with late model heads costing about $8,000 for 400hp?
-What electronics do you run - an L34 twin coil dizzy or a late model electronic dizzy?
-Don't change the rules as every rule change cost the competitors. I ran in a class in 2001 which required standard wheel for the first 3 rounds and then they decided to allow aftermarket wheels from round 4. The aftermarket wheels weight about 20kg per set less and you had to run them to stay competitive - so I had 3 sets of standard wheels that I purchased 2 months earlier and then had to go and by 2 sets of aftermarket wheels for round 4 - a good way to throw away $7,000. (I didn't buy 3 sets of aftermarket wheels, only 2, and used a set of the standard wheels for wet weather tyres).
This class sounds good and if you want to sit down and run through what might be a good set of rules get together guys who runcars in IPRA, Sports Sedans and Group A and C.
Cheers,
Yellow
This sounds like it could be a real goer. A couple of things to keep in mind when framing the rules if you want to go the Group C replica route (I'll keep this to an a9x as I know them pretty well):
-15" slicks are hard to get and are dearer than 16" slicks.
-If you do run slick then you will need 2 carry a second set of rims for wets as well a you would need to buy a set of wet tyres straight away - so that is $3,000 or more for a set of rims and tyres you may never use.
-Do you allow magnesium wheels - a little lighter and a lot dearer.
-If you run any diff, would you make it a full floater as it is a lot safer and a lot quicker to change the ratios. Also, don't use a 10 bolt as ratios are really hard to get and they are only available second hand.
-Keep the gearbox as a 4 speed.
-Would you make it manditory that you had to run the A9X rear floor pan?
-What engine do you run? L34 Group C spec at $15,000 for 400hp or a 4 bolt VN block with late model heads costing about $8,000 for 400hp?
-What electronics do you run - an L34 twin coil dizzy or a late model electronic dizzy?
-Don't change the rules as every rule change cost the competitors. I ran in a class in 2001 which required standard wheel for the first 3 rounds and then they decided to allow aftermarket wheels from round 4. The aftermarket wheels weight about 20kg per set less and you had to run them to stay competitive - so I had 3 sets of standard wheels that I purchased 2 months earlier and then had to go and by 2 sets of aftermarket wheels for round 4 - a good way to throw away $7,000. (I didn't buy 3 sets of aftermarket wheels, only 2, and used a set of the standard wheels for wet weather tyres).
This class sounds good and if you want to sit down and run through what might be a good set of rules get together guys who runcars in IPRA, Sports Sedans and Group A and C.
Cheers,
Yellow
#75
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Posted 15 November 2007 - 02:23 PM
I missed this as well...
re replica's... we wouldnt be able to use Tabacco stuff on our cars... but we could probably be like that VK and have war paint but not he words.
These cars would have to be Sports sedans if we want to use slicks, its the only class that fits. Imp Prod class would be a good basis, but use some other freedoms as already mentioned.
Engine size would all have to be under 6.0L... even IPRA and Sports sedans are limited to this... so 383 is out. Thats why my engine is at 366CI (6.0L). Speaking of which my car would need a new donk as it has a chev. Would the rules allow my current LX?
Do we really need to limit the gearbox to 4 spd etc. as I only use 5th at EC... and of course Bathurst next year (yep I'm on the list). The tremec TKO 5 speed is a good box.
I have a Hatchback LX waiting to be started... so I have a car that could be used (its an LX sunbudgie)
Count me in as a starter
re replica's... we wouldnt be able to use Tabacco stuff on our cars... but we could probably be like that VK and have war paint but not he words.
These cars would have to be Sports sedans if we want to use slicks, its the only class that fits. Imp Prod class would be a good basis, but use some other freedoms as already mentioned.
Engine size would all have to be under 6.0L... even IPRA and Sports sedans are limited to this... so 383 is out. Thats why my engine is at 366CI (6.0L). Speaking of which my car would need a new donk as it has a chev. Would the rules allow my current LX?
Do we really need to limit the gearbox to 4 spd etc. as I only use 5th at EC... and of course Bathurst next year (yep I'm on the list). The tremec TKO 5 speed is a good box.
I have a Hatchback LX waiting to be started... so I have a car that could be used (its an LX sunbudgie)
Count me in as a starter
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