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Group C/A Replica Racing - There must be a way!

Started by Racehatch , Nov 12 2007 06:16 PM

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345 replies to this topic

#76 _rorym_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 02:35 PM

Hi All,

This sounds like it could be a real goer. A couple of things to keep in mind when framing the rules if you want to go the Group C replica route (I'll keep this to an a9x as I know them pretty well):

-15" slicks are hard to get and are dearer than 16" slicks.

-If you do run slick then you will need 2 carry a second set of rims for wets as well a you would need to buy a set of wet tyres straight away - so that is $3,000 or more for a set of rims and tyres you may never use.

-Do you allow magnesium wheels - a little lighter and a lot dearer.

-If you run any diff, would you make it a full floater as it is a lot safer and a lot quicker to change the ratios. Also, don't use a 10 bolt as ratios are really hard to get and they are only available second hand.

-Keep the gearbox as a 4 speed.

-Would you make it manditory that you had to run the A9X rear floor pan?

-What engine do you run? L34 Group C spec at $15,000 for 400hp or a 4 bolt VN block with late model heads costing about $8,000 for 400hp?

-What electronics do you run - an L34 twin coil dizzy or a late model electronic dizzy?

-Don't change the rules as every rule change cost the competitors. I ran in a class in 2001 which required standard wheel for the first 3 rounds and then they decided to allow aftermarket wheels from round 4. The aftermarket wheels weight about 20kg per set less and you had to run them to stay competitive - so I had 3 sets of standard wheels that I purchased 2 months earlier and then had to go and by 2 sets of aftermarket wheels for round 4 - a good way to throw away $7,000. (I didn't buy 3 sets of aftermarket wheels, only 2, and used a set of the standard wheels for wet weather tyres).

This class sounds good and if you want to sit down and run through what might be a good set of rules get together guys who runcars in IPRA, Sports Sedans and Group A and C.

Cheers,

Yellow

Mike,
16s are allowed..
I have a set of Challengers with Toyo RA1s as my wets...I am not going batshit in the wet for anyone...I also have the set of slicks with a spare wheel for wets and slicks.
Mag is out.
Full floater diffs are expensive...and the idea is probably NOT to allow quick diff ratio changes..VN /Nissan diffs seem plentiful and relatively cheap to adapt.. or get a 9"..plenty around..

The floor would not need to be changed,,,..this is budget class...

VN engine is fine...again..easy and cheap to source..

Current elec ignition for reliability purposes..

LX...Ciggy signwriting is used in group C now?..Yes?..Doesnt Stubber run it on the brock A9X hatch?...If there is a problem I will make up a "Y" to go over the "L" in Marlboro and I will have the Maryboro Dealer Team! :clap:

R

Edited by rorym, 15 November 2007 - 02:37 PM.

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#77 micklx

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:04 PM

I think a gentlemans agreement that if you have an existing car, that doesn't comply, you could run it as long as you aren't winning or even getting points.

If its a bunch of cars running with the sports sedans, no-one can stop you racing any car you like as long as it meets the sports sedans rules (if they have any!)

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#78 Racehatch

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:07 PM

Hey Yellow, thanks for the input, its great to get some feedback from someone who has current experience with these cars!

Looks like Rory has covered most of it there, re the floater thing, I guess we'll leave it to the discresion of the competitor as to whether they want to run one, I agree they are handy, and the fact that they are safer in the event of an axle failure is another plus.

I agree with your comments re rule changes too, so I guess we'll just have to spend as much time as needed to get something organised rules wise now and stick to it.

Pete, congrats on getting a run at the Mountain! Like I said on the other forum, I'm still grateful SA gets 3 spots.. hell it could have been none!! Hopefully we should know who soon... I guess you could say I have a 3 in 19 chance

Thats a good point on the ciggie advertising, dont know how the group c guys get away with it, I might make some enquiries..

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#79 _rocket_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:22 PM

Have we got side tracked here, werent we trying to race Group c/a replicas, seems like we are turning into sports sedans. If we follow the group c/a rules with the exception of rim hts to 16in, then all the rules are there for us. Its an independent replica/ economy/ have fun class is it not ?

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#80 _rorym_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:37 PM

True, Rod but with accesibilty to current day parts..hence the later model blocks, electronic igntion.etc..but I think Sam is right..we are pretty close..I dont mind Micklx coming out to play with us.
R

Edited by rorym, 15 November 2007 - 03:38 PM.

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#81 _MRNOS_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:49 PM

Cars built to replicate the old racers from the 70's early 80's-signage, body kits, ,engine's to be as per original-ie same material, cast blocks and heads, internals free??, wheels maybe up to 1 size over original-for cost of tyres/choices etc, gearboxs same pattern as originals-ie 4speeds for toranas, diff's free, brakes free as long as they fit under the required wheel size-maybe limit to 4spots???

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#82 _AGGRO_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:52 PM

yeah im in agreeance with pete bout the 5 speeds (and agree the Tremec TKO is great), i dont use it at QLD raceway and it has decent straights. maybe for the cars that dont fully comply can just run around with yas and not score points, if we are all using slicks i wont have a grip advantage over anyone else....brakes i may have a slight advantage, depends on other ppls set ups tho... and any of those advantages with teh 5th gear, wider wheels etc will be evened out cause by the time this category gets up and running i will only have a mild 308

Edited by VK_Torana, 15 November 2007 - 03:53 PM.

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#83 Racehatch

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 04:20 PM

Well 6 pages of discussion so quick shows that there is enough interest for me to spend more time on this.

It seems with have 2 schools of thought on how to approach this, either we go the more authentic road, and just run with the current regs or we allow a level of modification to make the cars better as racecars... The main reason why I have been suggesting a bit of lattitude with regard to the engine, trans and diff, has been to try and make the cars cheaper to run as a race car. Speak to anyone who has raced an original spec car and they will tell you things wear out and just arnt strong enough to withstand the pressures of racing (even at a club level) which means you replace things more regularly which costs more...

But the downside of this is that you need to limit those modifications to stop people going bananas and filling thier cars with exotic bits... So much thought needs to be given to the wording of the rules.

The reality is that as we are running within and existing category that allows a wide scope of changes, there is nothing to stop someone painting "Marlboro" on there torana sports sedan and running around with us, as mentioned anyone who's car can qualify to run in SS can play, and those that choose to build their cars to the rules we come up with can get some points. I'm all for encouraging people to get out on the track either way!

As long as the appearance of the car is a close as is reasonable to the original then I think we will get a good response from people who come to watch, which will in turn give event promoters a good reason to include us at meetings.

Edited by 350LH, 15 November 2007 - 04:21 PM.

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#84 rodomo

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 04:36 PM

Would a VB Commodore be O.K. if it's got a VC grill? :blink:

Should I be looking for a 308? :spoton:

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#85 _TJ253_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 05:03 PM

I think you need to make it have flexible rules so what if ure running a mild 308 and the guy infront of you has a 355 for example if he has the cash let him go for it i thought it would be More important making rules that would attract more people and get more cars on the track Most people just wanna get out on the Track and have fun All u need is good people a car that goes and is safe and im sure it would be great

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#86 rodomo

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 06:13 PM

^ If this takes off, there would be plenty of club cars getting re-sprays and there would be full grids no doubt.

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#87 _rocket_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 06:33 PM

I guess if we all look the same as the original type cars, with a few stronger parts, then its all good.

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#88 _LXChev366_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:22 PM

I will throw something else out there...

When I visited NZ back in 93, I went along to a track near Auckland and one category that was running that day was called "the Muscle Cars series" or something like that (yes I know about the NZ Central Muscle Car series) and they had cars of all types show up... basically "Muscle Cars"... going from memory...
Corvette, Mustang, Gt Falcons, Torana, Charger etc... they were basically road going cars with race mods... ie V8's with about 400hp, slighter bigger than std brakes, nice sounding exhaust and full body work etc. They looked and sounded great.
Then this year I was at the MCM at Eastern Creek and saw the NZ guys in there current cars... The Current cars have 2 levels... Group 1 cars (slicks) and Group 2 were cars with less freedoms and running on Type R tyres.

Now...do we really need to go down the Replica rout at all... why now just follow what NZ has done and made there own rules... but as seen at EC they look and sound like ex Group C cars... Because our rules will differ from Group C, we could come up with a mix of categories... ie Full Group C Body Work (ie no fibreglass panels, but spoilers ok) IPRA Suspension ie standard arms and pick up points, Our own rules re engines... Engine Block from the family... updated Block and heads ok ie VN V8 in LX and Windsor in XD Falc etc... you could list the eligible engines for the model of car concerned, like IPRA do now) with, heads, exhaust and ignition free...

So in other words it is not a replica class but a whole new category that is log booked as SS but to our specs (as we are all trying to say I guessing) but they LOOK like Group C... and call it Classic OZ Muscle Cars... or something?
that way the Group C guys wont care (hopefully) as they arnt replica's

Commodore Cup cars are log booked as SS so basically take a leaf out of that arrangement and start from scratch. We could also have 2 Groups... 1 & 2 (as above) so if someone want to come out in a cheaper way ok... etc..

Here is some info on Cenral Muscle Cars...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=VSV3HG25ZZs

http://www.centralmusclecars.co.nz/

About The Class

Central Muscle Cars caters to Grand Touring and sports production cars built before December 31 1983. All cars must be fitted with a roll cage and comply in every aspect with the Motorsport Association of New Zealand safety rules.
The cars must be powered by a normally aspirated six cylinder, V8, or V12 engine, of the same material, and same number of cylinders as available to the vehicle when new. The class does not cater for rotary engined vehicles, mid or rear engined vehicles, or vehicles with a four wheel drive system. The vehicle must be a recognised production car of which at least 1000 identical units have been built.

The series caters for two classes. Group One and Group Two. Group One is the open class, and vehicles may run modified suspension, and slick tyres. Wheel size, and internal engine components are free.

Vehicles in Group Two must run factory original suspension, and treaded DOT tyres plus smaller brakes. In both classes, the bodywork must remain standard. The two Groups can be identified by the GDM Group banner along the top of the front windscreen. Group 1 cars wear a yellow and blue banner, and Group 2 cars wear a two-tone blue banner.

Currently, Central Muscle Cars enjoy a huge variation of exciting, noisy machines of all types. Corvette's, Mustangs, Camaro's, Monaro's, Torana's, Falcon's, Commodore's, and even a Jaguar XJS are all catered for by the class.

below are the tech rules...

http://www.centralmu...co.nz/rules.doc

edit.. after reading all that ^ what I am trying to say is run "IPRA" Group C looking cars with slicks, but ban 4 cyl, rotary, 4wd and Jap cars like the NZ boys do!!

Edited by LXChev366, 15 November 2007 - 07:35 PM.

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#89 _82911_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:26 PM

Something to consider, that hasn't been metioned...
It is a requirement of the clerk of the course that all competitors qualify for racing with a time of at least 130% of the pole time.
Keep in this in mind if you are running in sports sedans fields with a lower spec car. Not trying to exclude anyone, just would hate to see someone disapointed because there time fell a litttle short of the mark required by the clerk of the course.
Example for Eastern creek would be...
Pole time 1min 34 sec... X 130%= 2mins 2 seconds.
Now a 2.02 lap is fairly slow for a car with slicks and 400 HP but what if someone want a run just for fun, with 200hp and raidial "r" specs...
Keep it in mind that's all......

I'm all for keeping it simple.....
Sam check the Nc regs and you will see that is probably the direction we need to be headed. I know some will say"but some of those cars are $100K rocketships" and that is true, but you will never stop people exploiting the rules to the very edge of development.. THAT IS RACING....
Those people are easy to spot however, they are the ones out the front of all the races, they usually have the biggest transporter and an ego to match. Unfortunately for them they also seem to be always having the least amount of FUN!!!
So what I am saying... Don't be concerned too much with what everyone else is doing. If the category is envisioned as one of a "social" basis with the emphasis focused on "fun" rather than win at all costs, then have fun......Simple!!!
Run the GP for 17th place.... who cares! some of the best races you have are for 33rd position! :spoton:

Cheers Greg..

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#90 _rorym_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:52 PM

This is great stuff...Greg..nice add in..LX...sort of get where you are going..my concern is we end up with a Biante Series Class...dry sumps etc etc..too rich for me...HOWEVER!!..I am in for a penny/in for a pound on...Under 5.1 Litre and Over 5.1 litre class....Now we are talking...that allows the more std Commodores with 308s a class and for me and NOS with the 355s the top capacity class.....and the above questions would be catered for. With 2 classes...this might also eliminate the problem Greg raised above as you only need to be within 130% of your CLASS pole position time.....Great work guys...Keep it coming.. :clap:

R..

P.S. Again!! Prioritory is getting everyone to the grid...we lend bits like the NC boys do to get your competitor/mates car out there..like the old bike racing days.

Edited by rorym, 15 November 2007 - 07:57 PM.

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#91 _rocket_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:01 PM

You hit on the head Greg for me, just for fun, I dont want to be at the panelbeaters after every meeting, or spend a shit load to keep up with everyone, trying to get a pile of horsepower or what ever. Im just there to put on a bit of a show, and for the fun of going fast and for spectators to admire our cars, remember the past of the great Group C/A days.

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#92 _82911_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:14 PM

Yes but unfortunately Rory the 130% is levied on the Category as a whole not individual classes within the category. It is seen as a "safety issue"
What you also have to understand about Biante cars "touring car masters" as they are now known, is that they EVOLVED to what you see today from STOCK type production cars. Sure a lot of the enhancements give a performance advantage, but a lot are also there for safety and reliability reasons.
Example, try running hard for 10 laps on standard size brakes... they will burn up, so in the interest of not having desintegrating rotors and carbon/carbon pads at $500 a throw, they allowed larger brakes... and then they brake later and harder and then they burn up again so they need a dedicated race rotor/hat combo and so it goes.....
Same with the dry sump thing....... and the cambered floating diff and the dog boxes....
Sure they give a performance advantage, but most were introduced in the name of reliability.
Don't get me wrong... I know what is being proposed here and I support it 100% just trying to clue everyone up a bit , so when the rules get bent..... well you know what I'm saying!

Cheers Greg..

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#93 _rorym_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:50 PM

You hit on the head Greg for me, just for fun, I dont want to be at the panelbeaters after every meeting, or spend a shit load to keep up with everyone, trying to get a pile of horsepower or what ever. Im just there to put on a bit of a show, and for the fun of going fast and for spectators to admire our cars, remember the past of the great Group C/A days.

Gotcha Greg...so it needs to be keenly watched..

Rod,
Like the Muscle Car days at QR and then Morgan Park??..draglc loved them.
R

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#94 _rocket_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:57 PM

Yeh thats it, good old Andrew, wearing out 1 back tyre, or maybe 2 or 3 a day.Should have had a LSD.

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#95 Racehatch

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 09:32 PM

Crazy, lots of ideas!
The NZ muscle car formula had'nt occured to me, neither had using the Nc rules.... nor the 130% rule (which i knew about and should have considered!) Thats probably one of the bigger negatives to running with the Sports Sedans...

Really the only way this is going to work is to try and narrow all the ideas down into something that will work within the SS category, if we can get enough numbers to justify our own grid maybe some sub categories can be created that will allow some of the entry level guys to run?

The idea of making it a muscle car class definately has merit, although I think encouraging the replica thing would make it a better show, and give it a bit of an angle... I want to be careful not to exclude anyone as such (eg 4,6 and 8) although it would probably be easier to create rules if we did.. As has been mentioned, we want to try and make it attractive to as many people as possible.

Looking at the Nc rules vs the group c, they certainly appear more comprehensive whilst still along the same lines.. might do a a cut and paste and see what I can come up with..

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#96 _rorym_

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 09:35 PM

So with the 130% rule...how does that work with 2 litre Escorts out there?..are they that close?..or the nissan Gazelle group A for that matter. Surely it isnt anywhere near a Group /A Commodore?
R

Edited by rorym, 15 November 2007 - 09:37 PM.