145 replies to this topic

[Dr Terry]

Just on the 427 Monaro, yes there were 3 race versions built, 2 by GRM and I think the third by Team Brock. The road going versions however, one show car (fitted with a Gen3) and one pre-production car, which was formally owned by Yellowa9x's and I was lucky enough to drive at Eastern Creek in 2007.

I don't want to be too pedantic but the 1st 427 Monaro wasn't a Holden, it wasn't even a Monaro. AFAIK it was badged the HRT 427 & was made by HSV. HSV weren't allowed to badge their 2-door coupes as Monaros, they were called GTO or GTS Coupes. etc.

I'm also of the opinion that the HRT 427 showcar/prototype was a different car altogether to the 427 'Monaros' built for the Nations Cup races. The original HRT 427 had wishbone front suspension & many other expensive tweaks that the Nations Cup cars didn't get. Didn't the 2nd version of the 24 hour Bathurst Monaro get a Harrop diff with 9" Ford internals.

Dr Terry

[yel327]

As far as rare (in build numbers) Holden "muscle" cars is concerned the 1973 LJ Bathurst would be it with approx 150 wouldn't it? Although XU-1's built after Bathurst had the same specs didn't they? If that is the case then 250 x 1972 Bathurst spec LJ XU-1??

I remember someone telling me (I think it was Ben Stewart) that the HRT-427 as displayed at the Sydney motor show was actually the same car that debuted at the earlier motor show as a CV6! So in effect it was a secondhand car by the time HSV got their hands on it.

The pinnacle of the lot if we go into one-offs has to be the Black XW Bill Bourke Special. Or maybe the single Phase IV XA coupe built. I just wish Holden had bit the bullet and put a big block (even as a one off) into a HG oor HQ coupe.......

[Collo]

GTR-X?

[micklx]

The HRT427 cannot be described as a road vehicle surely with none being made available for sale through the HSV Dealer network and only 1 being sold off by HSV long after the decision was made not to continue with the project. As mentioned by Dr Terry, the race and road cars were very different animals.

In reply to the original question, in terms of the most collectable Holden, I think the L34 is right up there but due to us all having our own opinion, you'll never get everyone to agree with you on this.

It won Bathurst 2 out of 3 times, just like the A9X did, and came 2nd on the other occasion which is 1 place higher than the A9X managed on debut so its racing pedigree is solid

It was hard to buy one, I don't think you could accidently end up with an L34 in the same way that you could accidently get a Bathurst XU1 (apparently)

It introduced a long list of upgrades like the 14" wheels, bolt on flares, bigger front brakes, as well as the HO kit, I mean it was a car designed to race under the rules of the day wasn't it, like the Bathurst XU1s were, and I don't think this applies as much to the Bathurst Monaros or the A9X, both of which were sold with fairly standard engines. So the L34 was the last Holden to be available with factory 'hot' engine bits available.

[Statler]

I find it interesting everytime this discussion comes up.
What is the best/ most expensive/ rarest/ ect.

Everybody always selects the 'mainstream' vehicles. GTHO A9X E49 ect.

All the manufacturers [then & now] had their own tuning shops, where the 1off prototype vehicles were produced.
A lot of this work was 'outsourced', but it was usually always the same group of ppl doing the work.

There wouldn't be a Holden/ford/chrysler billboard on the building.
Sometimes these 1 off creations would be produced by the manufacturer, usually they wern't.
Most of these '1off prototypes' were crushed after the development was completed.

Bill bourke's big block XW is one of those cars.
I would bet my bottom $ that at some time, GMH would have tried to slot a 350 into the LH, what would that car be worth if it was found in a barn?

Little known is the prototype of the XC Cobra.
Ford actually built 12 of these coupes & sold them through dealers/ gave them to factory drivers.
It is on record, that Dick Johnson was given 1 of these, among others.
Factory fitted Simmons, droptank, oil recovery system, rollcage [removed for street use], straight cut gears in the toploader, locked 9", ect.
I was fortunate to drive 1 of these cars many years ago. The owner still has it!

Or how about the VG ute that chrysler used to test the E49 mechanicals?
A E49 ute would have been a wild ride! LOL
What would that be worth? How collectable?

Or the Leyland force 7V! You want to talk limited numbers.........

Is the L34 the most collectable Holden?

It probably is.........if you own 1!

But i doubt it!

Flame suit on......cheers, Col.

[yel327]

The HK and HT 1837 Monaros were definitely designed to race under the rules of the day, even more so than the L34 or 1973 Bathurst spec XU-1. They were designed to race as they were bought, not with modifications as per post 1972. The L34 was allowed to race with Dellortos, Holley plus have the full exhaust changed from the first joint backwards. They were allowed to run on slicks. They were a very different car to what raced. Bruce McPhee bought his HK new, stripped it down and put it back together to make sure it was OK. Then raced it and won Bathurst 1968 on a single set of buffed down road tyres. All that said, the cars only operated under the rules of the day. If formative years of Group C started in 1968 we would have seen some serious mods to the Monaros as well. Don't forget that the HK/HT Monaro also won 2 out of 2. The HT was really just a modified HK with slightly thicker discs and a longer stroke engine with better heads. I know a HT GTS350 ran in 1970 but it was not ever a frontline contender - the factory had changed to LC XU-1 by then (sort of like an L34 running in 1977 or an XU-1 in 1974) (The difference between a HK and HT Bathurst Monaro is probably less development wise than the difference between a 1977 and 1979 A9X or a 1974 L34 and a 1976 L34).

It is correct that the HK 327 engines were pretty much stock engines, but the HT GTS350 manual engines, especially the later cars were by no means a slug. These easily outpowered an XW GT-HO and dyno tests and 1/4 mile times (and race results) of the day reflect this. Put an L34 and a HT GTS350 on a straight road and the L34 would struggle to keep up (until some corners were found of course!)

I would have also said that the L34 was close to the start of factory "hot bits" being available. HDT made 186 cast fuellies available for a limited time for the HT GTS350, but remember factory "hot bits" extended into VH/VK days where HDT bits were fitted to Holdens on the line which ended up in non-HDT cars eg intake, B cast heads, windage tray etc. Even the Group A packages had such stuff added for Homologation purposes. One reason the A9X had a standard engine was there was no need to have anything else but (another being ADR27A). The L34 spec engine was homologated for Group C and hence was allowed to be used for racing. The A9X just homologated the diff, brakes and suspension among a few other bits.

All said, I agree that the L34 is close to the top in collectability. To me it just comes behind the HK/HT 1837 Monaros and LX SS A9X. Probably line ball with the 1973 Spec XU-1. This is without including the VK, 2 x VL and VN GroupA HDT/HSV's as well.

Edit - Col, The Bill Bourke XW wasn't a prototype like the V8 XU-1's. It was a proper coded production car built by special request for Bill Bourke. It would never have been destined for the crusher.

Also forgot, remember that the engine code for the HK GTS 327 engine was L34! That car was always meant to be coded as a HK GTS (737) with engine option L34, just like the LH SLR5000 with engine option L34 was. GM politics caused Holden to hide it as a separate model. The extra power was gained by using a bigger standard engine rather than a modified same size engine like was done with the LH.

Edited by yel327, 16 January 2009 - 09:17 AM.

[micklx]

Not disagreeing here, just trying to put it all together in my head as I was a bit young at the time to be into the scene,

I always thought the 68 Bathurst cars were pretty much your standard engine, for 69 the XW Windsor HO was probably a more 'hotted up' engine than the HT GTS 350 and then it was on for young and old in 1970 with the Phase 2 and the XU1.

Then after a few years of madness the factory hot bits ended. HDT introduced some hot bits but the engines were much more civilised than the 70-74 stuff.

[Statler]

because they don't have much of a race pedigree in Australia

Ok...they might not have won, but didn't they do ok in the places?

Great to hear the utes are still around!

[yel327]

Not disagreeing here, just trying to put it all together in my head as I was a bit young at the time to be into the scene,

I always thought the 68 Bathurst cars were pretty much your standard engine, for 69 the XW Windsor HO was probably a more 'hotted up' engine than the HT GTS 350 and then it was on for young and old in 1970 with the Phase 2 and the XU1.

Then after a few years of madness the factory hot bits ended. HDT introduced some hot bits but the engines were much more civilised than the 70-74 stuff.

You are correct that the 1968 HK's were bog stock, small valve truck engines (Tonnawanda sourced). The second type 327 engine (Canadian built) were even less powerful. Remember though this is how the original muscle cars were built ie smaller body with bigger car's engine (engine ostensibly from the CKD Impalas, Parisiennes etc). The HT 350 had much better heads and higher compression (10.25:1, HK was 8.75:1). The XW GT-HO was a purpose built race car and was an awesome car, just the HT was better! The HT could also be ugraded with 186 cast fuellies.

Mike Preston quoted his figures on Fastlane for his HT GTS350 when bought new on Perfectune's dyno at 245 rwhp, dyno was setup to reflect engine hp. His mate's XW GT-HO managed 224hp. Here is the link where it's discussed:

http://www.fastlane....earchTerms=dyno

The reason the factory Holden hot engines died off was because there was no need to anymore once the L34 engine was homologated. It became important again in 1985 when GroupA kicked off. Ford pulled out of racing so they didn't officially bother past the PhaseIV effort.

[Collo]

Oz772 and Yel327, Thanks for both of those informative posts.

Gotta love the info that comes out on here.

[yel327]

I forgot to add, my personal "wish list" of Aussie mass produced road cars goes like this (in no particular order):

HK 1837 in Yellow
LX D77 A9X in White
LJ XU-1 in Bathurst 1973 spec in Silver
VH E49 in Silver
VH E55 in Yellow or Orange
XA RPO83 in Black
XW GT-HO or GT-HO Phase II in Red
HSV V2 GTS in yellow
HJ Kingswood Sandman ute, 308 TH400 in Black
VN Group A

Imagine that lot in your Garage!

Alongside:

Dodge Charger 426 Hemi manual (General Lee)
GT500 '69 Mustang
69 ZL1 Camaro
Fuel injected '57 Chev 2 door pillarless Belair

Just to name a few......

[yel327]

Hmmm...L34 due to numbers...but the full development of that car was the A9X....as much as I hate to say it...I would prefer the A9X in the shed...the ultimate Torana...others?...easy..1966 Mini Cooper S ..original...Giant Killer...never underestimate the little cars...1-9 at Bathurst 66....its not always about engine size....Twin Cam Escort...another Giant Killer...finally...73 Bathurst XU1...my fav...wish I still had them all... Collectable USA car?..No contest ...1969 302 Boss Mustang...sexiest car alive....
R

Rory, you'd have the Boss over a GT500? I'd have to agree with you on how good a '69 looks. I prefer a '69 Camaro though. I'd love to have a 428 '69 'stang and a 427 '69 Camaro.

[yel327]

As fas as US muscle, agree 100%. Everyone loves the 69'r. We've got a 66 Coupe and I always say that the 69 Boss is the only one we'd trade into.

DD

I just did some looking on the 'web. It was the '68 GT500 I meant, the '69 is ugly. And the '69 Boss is a much better looking car. I like the Camaro better but I see what Rory means, the boss is a sweet looking car. Now the boss body with a Cobrajet 428.....

[kudu]

As fas as US muscle, agree 100%. Everyone loves the 69'r. We've got a 66 Coupe and I always say that the 69 Boss is the only one we'd trade into.
DD

I used to 100% agree as well, but lately I have seen some absolutely stunning 65 mustang fastbacks that have made me change my mind.

It would also be a close race between a Hemi Cuda.

[Statler]

Give me a split window 'stang with a Gen3! mmmmmm....................

woops, i'm off topic. lol

[rodomo]

Give me a split window 'stang with a Gen3! mmmmmm....................

Don't you mean 'Vette?

[Statler]

Don't you mean 'Vette?

LOL, yep.....bitten by the scotch monster again!