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Historic Rego for Torana's

Started by _Yella-5000_ , Mar 10 2006 11:08 PM

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#1 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:08 PM

The Torana's are either 30 years old, or beyond 30 years old. We are getting pressures put on us to develop acceptable guidelines for the Ole Torana's. From what I gather, the local authorities are extremely concerned about 'Street Machines' being put on concessional registration. This is bit of a drama for the Torana's, particularly the square ones (LH-LX) as period modifications were all the go.

Any discussion what you think should or shouldn't be allowed on 'Historic' rego would be appreciated, hopefully with the view to develop a national standard. Are you up to the Challenge? It's no easy feat.

PM me with your email, and I can send you a draft that we've developed thus far in Canberra, however initial advice is that it is too severe!!

The other difficulty, despite all States believing that they have the same rules and regulations, the reality is they vary widely.

Good luck with the challenge.

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#2 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:09 PM

To kick it all off:-

QUOTE (Yella SLuR @ Mar 10 2006, 07:56 AM)

At our next meeting we are considering what allowable modifications will be allowed on historic registration in the ACT. It would be good if we could somehow devote our efforts to developing a national standard, possibly through this forum.

Yella, I'd be happy to discuss this, as I am currently working on this for my Club. The biggest problem I see is that States seem to have different Historic Registration schemes, so that something that's OK in one state is not necessarily allowable in another state.

What would be a good start though is an agreed list backed up by evidence of what options were available with what cars. Examples could be;

LC/LJ sedans with front or rear spoilers from factory
LH/LX S and SL models with any parts of body kits available from factory.

The thing is with the above, as far as the SA Historic Rego scheme is concerned, if we have good proof that one car left the factory and was sold with an unusual option, then we can allow athat option with all such models.

Another issue we face is the lack of a clear definition of 'replicas'. The SA scheme seems to be written around not allowing fibreglass body replicas of real cars, eg Cobras, vintage cars, etc, but unfortunately'replica' also covers the fitting of body kits and accessories eg to an LH/LX sedan to make it look like an L34 or A9X. I'm not talking about trying to pass the car off as the real thing, but if somone has gone to the trouble of recreating a faithful replica, then should it be eligible for historic rego???

PS, From what I've seen, Victoria has the best system through their Club Permit system.

Edited by Yella SLuR, 10 March 2006 - 11:11 PM.

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#3 dattoman

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 06:50 PM

Factory stock
Only way to go for concessional
And no private use except for club runs
If you want to drive it....... full rego it

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#4 goxu1

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:00 PM

I agree datto
Keep them factory original and there are no arguements.
I don't agree with "period" modifications and accessories either.
If it wasn't a Holden part of accessory , it's not allowed.
My 2c worth.

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#5 _smiley_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:26 PM

The whole "Factory" side of the arguement needs attention.
My previous GTR left the factory as a stocker but left the dealership as a XU-1 replicia eg:-rear spoiler/front spoiler and sprintmasters.<_<
So where do we draw the line in the sand :huh:

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#6 dattoman

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:32 PM

Ok
As it left the dealer then.
Original condition as it drove out with its first set of rego plates on it
To most this would be considered the base

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#7 _smiley_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:42 PM

I know to most it would be deemed trivial but to some poor buggar pleading a case for Historic rego it may be very important to the out come :spoton:

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#8 _lx5008_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:58 PM

i would like to find out more for nsw rego

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#9 Heath

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 08:14 PM

But many an SL/R 5000 was sent to another place to get flares, wider wheels etc before you got to drive it out of the Dealership. Sorry, but IMO there is no simple definition of what should and should not be allowed on club rego.

I intended to stick mine on Club Rego in 12 months time, but it all depends on what Dave wants to allow into the club. I'll only want it on CH plates for 12 months, but the car is already modified. Not by much, but still modified.

What do you say about LPG systems, aftermarket carbs, missing pollution gear. If someone goes to 14" wheels because they can't get 13" tyres any more, does that make them no longer eligible. I don't wanna sound like a little whingy bastard, but there is no clear and simple way of defining what is eligible. All Toranas are different, period.

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#10 _MYLJ_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 08:34 PM

I think it should be judged on the age of the car(30 yrs), streetmachines should not be excluded, Hotrods can currently get club plates (as can anything over 30yrs old under the current system in victoria, including streetmachines) If someone wants to use a limited rego system why should modifications to the vehicle stop them? It doesn't mean a dangerous or illegally modified car will get plates, if it is acredited system where the vehicle is inspected (by an engineer etc) I can't see what the problem is.

As for unmodified factory original cars it would be full of grey area's as dealer modifications may be hard to prove 30+ years after a car leaves the dealer and passes through different owners IMO.

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#11 tinkers

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 10:10 PM

I wasnt going to enter into this discussion but ....

With all the bullshit that goes with Club/Limited/Historic/what-ever-you-wish-to-call-it rego, it really isnt worth having.

Each state is different, each employee of each state transport also has ther own version of the regulations as well as the actual regulations as do each police officer in every state.

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#12 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 10:24 PM

Factory stock
Only way to go for concessional
And no private use except for club runs
If you want to drive it....... full rego it

Agree, that's why I have no intention of ever going Historic, I like my freedom and I'm happy to pay for it.

The main reason we want to do it in our club is so peeps can read our expectations before asking and us saying no. If they know where the bar is, then hopefully they can self assess before asking, makes club life a whole lot easier.

The dilema comes that Historic rego allows 'period' modifications. The question is, what are 'period' modifications.

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#13 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 10:37 PM

The whole "Factory" side of the arguement needs attention.
My previous GTR left the factory as a stocker but left the dealership as a XU-1 replicia eg:-rear spoiler/front spoiler and sprintmasters.<_<
So where do we draw the line in the sand

Fair point as well. Nearly every single LH SL/R 5000 got flares and the dragways when the L34 came out. I know that mine has had them since 1975 (still awaiting original owner to find a pic) and the dealer fitted sunroof since delivery in March 1974 (Statesman type electric solid panel one), Mark from Sydney has the identical sunroof in his L34 (coincidently Yella), but is manual.

Now, if peeps did that in 1974 and 1975, by limiting things to "only as from factory" aren't you in effect changing history?

Tinks I agree, it creates more hassles for Clubs than it's worth. There is something else in the pipeline, but I'd have to kill you if I revealed it, and yes everybody seems to have their own opinion on what is acceptable.

The other interesting thing to compare is NSW Hot Rod Registration, pre-1949 chassis, but everything else is free!!! I think they approach it more on a user pays basis, i.e. not driven daily therefore less wear and tear on roads, etc. That again adds a different slant to the whole Historic Registration thing. Maybe there needs to be another category of limited use registration for those that want it.

This debate intrigues me, the more I look into it, the more confused I get. Where do you draw the line? Then again, maybe I just think too much. I'm also a little uncomfortable that if we set up some standards here that they may be used Nation-wide. Although having said that, as much as the bureaucrats tell you they want a nation-wide consistent approach, our research with the Council of Motor Clubs shows large variations in regulation/policy.

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#14 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 10:43 PM

I think it should be judged on the age of the car(30 yrs), streetmachines should not be excluded, Hotrods can currently get club plates (as can anything over 30yrs old under the current system in victoria, including streetmachines)

It's actually only 25 years old in Victoria.

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#15 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 10:52 PM

What do you say about LPG systems, aftermarket carbs, missing pollution gear. If someone goes to 14" wheels because they can't get 13" tyres any more, does that make them no longer eligible. I don't wanna sound like a little whingy bastard, but there is no clear and simple way of defining what is eligible. All Toranas are different, period.

Good points. Indeed, what do you do when there is no more petrol? Would hydrogen or hybrid electric modifications be allowed?

Also concede after 30 years, there is no car which is 100% as from Factory, although some may be 95% similar to when they left the factory. If anyone claims there's is, I'd like to see the pictures of it on Day 1. I'm sure it don't have the factory alternator, radiator, plugs, paint (who'd want to collect faded stone chipped cars?), a sample of original factory dirt/dust from the carpet, etc. If anything they are recreations from the manufacturer's manuals of the day, and other references like magazines, and we all know how accurate they are don't we!!! Sorry, but to me, 'as factory' rings hollow.

Keep your views coming, don't know if there is going to be an answer. Like Tinks said, doesn't matter who you ask, they all seem to have different ideas. Maybe if we drop Historic, and just have Concessional Registration, i.e. I agree to keep my car in good condition by offering to limit it's use to ensure it's survival for future generations.

Here endeth the sermon....well for tonight anyways. I have a 5:00am start in the morning. Any persons interested in the position of President, please give me a bell.

EDIT: Must be tired, don't know my AM's from my PM's.

Edited by Yella SLuR, 11 March 2006 - 10:54 PM.

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#16 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 11:08 PM

Now look what ya's have done.

When a car is 30 years old, somebody has had to make a consciable decision to 'restore' or 'keep' a car original, it is a deliberate form of customisation. I have no problem with people that take that 'customisation' option, and admire them for their attention to detail and discipline, but the end of the day, why should they get concessions for their particular form of 'customisation' and others don't? Why should it have more merit than other forms of 'customisation'? Those people have also made a consciable decision to have their car a particular way, and gone about doing it in the same manner and expended similar amounts of money, as the 'as from factory' enthusiasts.

Still no answer.

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#17 _MYLJ_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 11:18 PM

I think it should be judged on the age of the car(30 yrs), streetmachines should not be excluded, Hotrods can currently get club plates (as can anything over 30yrs old under the current system in victoria, including streetmachines)
It's actually only 25 years old in Victoria.

Dooh!

25yrs my memory is leaving me :rolleyes:

I agree yella I don't think any "group" , restorers, modifiers , hotrodders, veteran,etc should be given special consideration over one another, it should be an even playing field for all.

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#18 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 11:27 PM

Wish I could find a picture of this Mexican themed American car as an example? It was on Historic rego. Yella goes off searching.

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#19 _Herne_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 11:27 PM

I was wondering when you would get around to that Yella, "why should they get concessions for their particular form of 'customisation' and others don't? Why should it have more merit than other forms of 'customisation'?"

It comes down to a matter of interpretation of the written rules.

I for one would not like to be telling anyone, your car is fine and to the next guy, yours is not when one has the slightest of mods and the other has many.

I remember days gone by when other clubs were discussing what would happen with the Toranas when they became 30 yrs of age and how it might affect their cars. The day of reckoning is almost here for all and for the early ones has well passed. It was not the early ones that had the many mods though.

What we really need is concessional rego for special interest cars, this then overcomes what is considered original and what is not.

Cheers
Herne

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#20 _MYLJ_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 11:40 PM

.
What we really need is concessional rego for special interest cars, this then overcomes what is considered original and what is not.

Agreed!

I'd love to have concessional rego on my toy, ............................................................as long as I can keep the custom plates :rolleyes:

(there the only reason its not on club plates already :rolleyes:

)

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#21 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 11:41 PM

Herne, that is my particular canundrum at the moment, the rego dudes want written rules!!!!

If you were to have a Special Interest Cars (Fully SIC, sorry, I should be more serious) rego, then why would you have Historic Rego, wouldn't you just fold it all into a single Concessional Registration Scheme (i.e. rego with conditions?)

Even scarrier (is there such a word?), what happens when the current 'ricer' cars get to 30 years old? They are representative of the current period! With that thought, I feel a bit ill.

Damn this is not easy.

Maybe the answer is 'Car Enthusiast Concessional Registration' (Rego with simple rules attached).

Edited by Yella SLuR, 11 March 2006 - 11:43 PM.

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#22 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 11:59 PM

Talking Enthusiasts, the issue was recently raised of Collector Plates. It worked on the basis, I have more than one car that I am preserving, but I can only drive one car at a time, therefore, I should be able to use the one rego/number plate on any of my cars.

That got rejected, because obviously, one car could be legit, but the others could be stolen vehicles, rebirthed, or Statutory Write-offs. Mind you, you could still get around that if you made identification and declaration of all vehicles on a Collector Plate registration.

There is one guy locally that has 32 Torries(don't quote me on that, but more Torana's than the average bear). I've also spoken to another with an LJ XU-1, LH SL/R 5000, L34, and recently sold a well known racing A9X to acquire something else. No he wouldn't include me in his will. I think one plate for all cars is going a bit far.

That raises another issue, what sort of registration can you have to allow ex-race cars to use public roadways to get to show's/display's so they are not locked away, we also have a few of those in Canberra that haven't seen the light of day for a long, long time, and little incentive for them to be restored or shown in public. We also have one of the Le Mans A9X's here that doesn't comply with the road regulations due to a fully welded roll cage!!!!! Isn't that historic, even though it isn't 30 years old? The New Parliament House is a historic building, it was only finished in the late 80's. On that basis, should the newer Monaro's be allowed on to Historic rego so we garrantee that they will still be around by the time they are 30 years old? ---> plastic

Now my head does hurt, night.

Still no answer.

Edited by Yella SLuR, 12 March 2006 - 12:01 AM.

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#23 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 12:03 AM

I'd love to have concessional rego on my toy, ............................................................as long as I can keep the custom plates (there the only reason its not on club plates already )

Why do you think that the L34 in our club with the custom plates 'L34' isn't on Concessional Rego. Another good point.

Edited by Yella SLuR, 12 March 2006 - 12:03 AM.

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#24 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 12:30 AM

Just explain the Monaro thing a bit more.

If there is a car, that is more than likely going to be a collectable in the future (how do you determine that, who would have thought a 3 wheel BMW with a front opening door would be collectable?), and the owner is willing to limit their usage to ensure it's survival to beyond 30 years, and be an active member of a car club, then should they be entitled to concessional registration for making the sacrafices required for that form of registration?

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#25 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 12:40 AM

I'd love to have concessional rego on my toy, ............................................................as long as I can keep the custom plates (there the only reason its not on club plates already � )
Why do you think that the L34 in our club with the custom plates 'L34' isn't on Concessional Rego. Another good point.

The arguement gets even more interesting when you get to the A9X's next year onwards. Nearly every A9X I have ever seen has some form of customised plate.