Hi all. I've had my LH on the road for nearly two months & it has a persistant overheating issue i'm having great dificulty rectifying. I've read a couple of posts on this subject & tried some different solutions but to no avail. Through process of elimination & trial & error i've put the problem down to air flow through the radiator but i could be wrong so i'm interested in hearing how others keep their V8 Toranas cool. I don't believe it's an issue with the engine itself as in three months of driving every day in peak hour traffic while in the VN it came out of it never came close to getting hot. Anyhow here's the run down on what i've done so far. After fitting the engine into the LH i replaced the water pump (small bearing to suit the V8 Torana pulleys & alt bracket) fitted a 180 FH thermostat, a new vertical flow three row core radiator with a 16 inch DC thermo fan along with all new hoses etc. On the freeway it ran at consistant 170-180 fahrenheit on the Autometre temp gauge. As soon as i got into slow traffic, it would heat up to 200, sometimes more & start to boil. I checked the fan was pulling to the engine not pushing back out so an incorrectly fitted fan wasn't the problem. I figured it needed a shroud so the fan would pull the air from the whole core instead of just where the fan mounts if this makes sense. It reversed the problem. At highway speeds it would get hot especialy when accelerating up hills etc & cool down slightly at low speeds. I figured perhaps the shroud was too restrictive, so I removed the the thermo completely & fitted a six blade plastic engine driven fan just to see what happens. Ran consistantly at 170-180 until i hit slow moving traffic, then it slowly heated up to 200. I know the original V8 LH-LX had nothing more than a four blade metal fan & a two row core radiator, apart from A9X etc & this seemed to be OK back then. If my engine was a cranky 400BHP+ stroker with hi-stall etc i could kind of understand it having some cooling issues but it is a more or less standard EFI 5.0ltr & auto & as i mentioned i never had these issues when i drove the VN this running gear came out of. This problem mainly seems to manifest itself when stuck in heavy traffic in Sydney's motorway tunnels such as the M5 east. Now i'm out of ideas as how to fix this problem & as the car is my daily driver at the moment i'm starting to get frustrated & worried i'm going to damage my engine. It's also got me wondering how people running hypo engines in these cars & LC-LJ Toranas which have even more restricted engine bays etc keep their beasts cool. For those who take the time to read this & think i'm ranting or whatever, i apologise if it seems so but i've poured alot of blood sweat & tears into this car & reluctantly i'm starting to think my next option maybe to part the car out & fit the engine back into another boring Commonwhore.
OVERHEATING ISSUES IN EFI V8 LH
Started by
_LH SLR 3300_
, Feb 08 2010 05:42 PM
58 replies to this topic
#2
Posted 08 February 2010 - 06:42 PM
200F is not overheating, that's only 93C. With the system under pressure and using good coolant it should be happy at up to 105C and still not be boiling...
Does it hold around 200? Sounds like you just need to fiddle with the shroud/fan options a little more to get the best compromise.
Does it hold around 200? Sounds like you just need to fiddle with the shroud/fan options a little more to get the best compromise.
#3
_LH SLR 3300_
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:03 PM
Thanks for the reply. The gauge i'm using goes up to 210F, the temp has gone off the gauge before in heavy traffic while using the thermo, shrouded & unshrouded. I'm using a 50/50 mix of Holden coolant (green) & water. Another thing that leads me to believe it's running overtemp is it has triggered a fault code in the ECU while running at 200 & over, O2 sensor-running too rich. This code is usually triggered when it's running too hot as the ECU will add more fuel to the mixture to cool the combustion temp down or so i'm told. Someone suggested the timing may be too advanced but i set it at 10 degrees as standard, using the Tech 1 GMH scanner & the engine hasn't detonated so far. I was considering mounting twin 12 inch thermos in front of the radiator along with retaining the mechanical driven fan, it's easier for the fans to "push" air through the core than "pull". What do think?
#4
_nial8r_
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:23 PM
hi matt, i think if you put the 2 X 12's on the front you shouldnt need the mechanical driven fan, but in saying that i dont think you wanna go drilling holes all over the joint fitting fans to find out it was a fail... there is a fair few ppl on the site that have done this conversion surly someone has come across this problem in there builds ???
#5
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:51 PM
Hi Lee. Yeah i did a search before i posted this thread & i came across one where AU falcon fans were used. I have a pair of these. I also got shown twin VT-VX V8 fans that were fitted to a SBC LX hatch. I also have a pair of these, thing is though when i measured from chassis rail to chassis rail i would've had to cut right back into the fans themselves to fit them. I'm guessing the people running these fans have trimmed the flange off the edge of the rails, something i don't want to do. I also tried a pair of flexilite fans in a universal cowl a mate had on his Commodore for awhile, same problem, not enough room between the rails to fit them. I priced a pair of individual 12 inch fans from Super Sh*t & all up it will cost me $200 to fit these, so before i part with my hard earned i wanted to see if this set up will actually work. I've spent a few hundred dollars already & i don't want to spend any more unless i'm certain it will fix the problem. As i mentioned i can't understand how the same engine in the VN never went over the quarter mark on temp gauge even on a 40+ day sitting stationary in the SHT relying on the old sh*tty clutch fan & cowl to keep it cool. I'd run this set up on the Torana but the Commodore cowl won't fit the Torana radiator & i'm fairly certain the fan would come very close to hitting the bonnet though i'm not game to try for risk of damaging it (the bonnet). Has anyone here used a Commodore clutch fan & cowl?
#6
tsn007
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 08:41 PM
HI Matt
You are welcome to look at my setup,
my car has been in 45 degree heat in traffic and temp gauge hardly moved
i have twin thermos and hq 3 core radiator
tony
You are welcome to look at my setup,
my car has been in 45 degree heat in traffic and temp gauge hardly moved
i have twin thermos and hq 3 core radiator
tony
#7
Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:35 PM
The way I read your first post, I thought you said you'd found a shroud/fan setup that works in traffic at the expense of some extra heat at higher speeds? If so it should be possible to have the temperature steady with some compromise in between.The gauge i'm using goes up to 210F, the temp has gone off the gauge before in heavy traffic while using the thermo, shrouded & unshrouded.
I don't think you'll gain a lot by putting fans on the front, just adding more obstruction. Everyone seems to love those AU fans, is there no way you can get them on there without cutting the car?
Is your radiator an HQ style one? Does the water flow through it OK? Unfortunately the Torana blocks off a lot more radiator than a Commodore but it should still work fine, perhaps its a dud?
#8
gtrboyy
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:44 PM
Hi Matt,
I might of mentioned it the first time I saw your car that only 2 set ups worked well on my lc.
One was a solid plastic fan,spacers with hq shroud.
Second was au fans.
Commodore clutch fan would be too long,sold plastic fan & spacer will work.
I might of mentioned it the first time I saw your car that only 2 set ups worked well on my lc.
One was a solid plastic fan,spacers with hq shroud.
Second was au fans.
Commodore clutch fan would be too long,sold plastic fan & spacer will work.
#9
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:55 PM
AU fans behind the radiator are the go. Avoid cheapo fans, I don't know if the ones you're talking about are good or bad but AU fans are tried and proven
Are you filtering the system?
And are you sure it's not cavitated?
Are you filtering the system?
And are you sure it's not cavitated?
#10
77_LX_HATCH
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 10:44 PM
This is the exact same problem with my stock as 253 in my hatch.
Tried various water pumps, brand new 3 core radiator with hq fan shroud and plastic fan, still wants to heat up in traffic to the temps you are describing. It amazes me. As soon as i get moving again it will start to cool down. So I ruled it down to either water flow or air flow. But I know the theromstat is opening and have back flushed the block through the two ports either side. No joy.
Last weekend grabbed a set of AU fans. Still yet to fit them (they look fairly simple, im not overly concerned about cutting the car). Bought a manifold screw in temp switch from repco, and flogged a couple of relay's from U-pull it.
Will post up pics of my progress. This is my last resort, as I am sick of this issue, and i bet you are too!
Cheers
Mike.
Tried various water pumps, brand new 3 core radiator with hq fan shroud and plastic fan, still wants to heat up in traffic to the temps you are describing. It amazes me. As soon as i get moving again it will start to cool down. So I ruled it down to either water flow or air flow. But I know the theromstat is opening and have back flushed the block through the two ports either side. No joy.
Last weekend grabbed a set of AU fans. Still yet to fit them (they look fairly simple, im not overly concerned about cutting the car). Bought a manifold screw in temp switch from repco, and flogged a couple of relay's from U-pull it.
Will post up pics of my progress. This is my last resort, as I am sick of this issue, and i bet you are too!
Cheers
Mike.
#11
_beergut_
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Posted 08 February 2010 - 10:58 PM
tried replacing the thermostat again?
as these can be faulty out of the box
as these can be faulty out of the box
#12
_BCR42Y_
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 07:13 AM
Hi Matt,
How close is your oil cooler to the the radiator? I didn't look when I saw the car last, but I know that when I moved mine further forward away from the radiator (still need to make up a proper bracket) the car seemed to run a bit cooler.
My car runs the plastic fan with spacer and a big plastic shroud HQ Shroud Link and unless I am in stop start traffic for continuous periods it seems to work fine, in saying that my radiator isn't the best and I suspect that once I replace the radiator it should get better.
My last resort is going to be to fit the AU thermo's, I remember reading somewhere that you can just get them into a Torana without cutting the rails, but by turning them upside down and cutting the shroud, also remember reading that a lot of parts shops will try and sell people the el fans in place of the AU fans which look similar but are bigger.
Most importantly, don't give up, you have built a very nice car, and no doubt this will get sorted!
How close is your oil cooler to the the radiator? I didn't look when I saw the car last, but I know that when I moved mine further forward away from the radiator (still need to make up a proper bracket) the car seemed to run a bit cooler.
My car runs the plastic fan with spacer and a big plastic shroud HQ Shroud Link and unless I am in stop start traffic for continuous periods it seems to work fine, in saying that my radiator isn't the best and I suspect that once I replace the radiator it should get better.
My last resort is going to be to fit the AU thermo's, I remember reading somewhere that you can just get them into a Torana without cutting the rails, but by turning them upside down and cutting the shroud, also remember reading that a lot of parts shops will try and sell people the el fans in place of the AU fans which look similar but are bigger.
Most importantly, don't give up, you have built a very nice car, and no doubt this will get sorted!
Edited by BCR42Y, 09 February 2010 - 07:16 AM.
#13
_nial8r_
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 07:23 AM
^^^ had the same problem with the wifes VXSS, had to change the water pump and after i did it the fan would cut in but wouldnt turn off unless i held the RPM's up for a bit around 2500 then it would turn off, at first i thought i had an air lock and after checking that and it was all good the car still done the same thing, took the thermostat off ( brand new also ) and dont the old boil the jug and test and the result was the " new " thermostst was f**ked so took it back to holden and the first thing the fella said was, you might get 1 in 1000 of them that are faulty and i got 1 of them and he chucked me another one straight away and havent had a problem since...
SRY Matt
SRY Matt
#14
gtrboyy
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 08:48 AM
1 in 1000? LOL..I got 3 dud ones in a row.They were the Tridon brand.
It is a good trick is to put them in a pot,boil the water to see if it opens,ust a thermometer to see what temp it opens at if you can.
Another thing when going to au fans is you'll need a better alternator,80 amp minimum.
It is a good trick is to put them in a pot,boil the water to see if it opens,ust a thermometer to see what temp it opens at if you can.
Another thing when going to au fans is you'll need a better alternator,80 amp minimum.
#15
Statler
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 08:52 AM
It seems strange that the only part you changed [from stock] is the waterpump.
As Heath mentioned...just maybe the impeller is a different size, & you are getting cavitation from the pump spinning too fast?
As Heath mentioned...just maybe the impeller is a different size, & you are getting cavitation from the pump spinning too fast?
#16
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:55 AM
thats a good point with the impeller being smaller, didnt even think of thatIt seems strange that the only part you changed [from stock] is the waterpump.
As Heath mentioned...just maybe the impeller is a different size, & you are getting cavitation from the pump spinning too fast?
it might be a pain in the ass but i think i would be to see if there is any difference between the stanard one and the new one before going out and handing over any more hard earned coin Matt
#17
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 12:53 PM
i am sure not everyone would agree but taking out the tried and tested thermostat and replacing it with a new one is not a good idea in my opinion .over the years ive had MANY BRAND new thermostats fail nearly causing damage to customers cars so now days i only fit them if i am replacing one that is faulty or it is required for warranty purposes when fitting new engines ect. And when i do i drill a 1/8 hole in it so if it decides its not going to play than at least there is some flow and it also helps when bleeding air out of the system.1 in 1000? LOL..I got 3 dud ones in a row.They were the Tridon brand.
#18
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 01:08 PM
Have a read of the thread I wrote chasing problems with my overheating problem, I covered a huge number of variables to find the problem
http://www.gmh-toran...=1
http://www.gmh-toran...=1
#19
Posted 09 February 2010 - 02:15 PM
If you really suspect thermostat when you do this, check it at a few different water temperatures around normal operating temp, from colder and from hotter. For example its not uncommon for a dodgy thermostat to open late or to begin opening correctly but won't open fully until too hot.It is a good trick is to put them in a pot,boil the water to see if it opens,ust a thermometer to see what temp it opens at if you can.
#20
_The Baron_
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 02:19 PM
I like the idea about boiling the thing first!!
Save the mucking around later.
Save the mucking around later.
#21
rexy
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 03:03 PM
Hi,
I run a 383 holden (pretty grunty setup) on straight LPG in a lx sedan.
With the following cooling system I have no probs, even on the 40+ degree days.
EF/EL twin thermos behind rad (yes I trimmed the inner bay)
Desert cooler 4 row tripple flow rad
Std type water pump ie not the ninja star style blades
160 F tridon hi flow thermostat
Filter in top hose (pantyhose)
All air gaps around rad and fans taped/siliconed up
Recovery style 15psi cap with recovery overflow bottle.
I think you are correct to assume your problems relate to either too little water flow or too little air flow.
Good luck, I am sure your problem is solveable.
Rexy
I run a 383 holden (pretty grunty setup) on straight LPG in a lx sedan.
With the following cooling system I have no probs, even on the 40+ degree days.
EF/EL twin thermos behind rad (yes I trimmed the inner bay)
Desert cooler 4 row tripple flow rad
Std type water pump ie not the ninja star style blades
160 F tridon hi flow thermostat
Filter in top hose (pantyhose)
All air gaps around rad and fans taped/siliconed up
Recovery style 15psi cap with recovery overflow bottle.
I think you are correct to assume your problems relate to either too little water flow or too little air flow.
Good luck, I am sure your problem is solveable.
Rexy
#22
_LH SLR 3300_
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 06:39 PM
Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread, REDA9X, i read your thread on your overheating issues thanks for that link. I think i can possibly rule out a faulty thermostat as i watched the temp climb after cold starting & within a few minutes of idling or driving it will reach around 200F then drop quickly down to around 170F which leads me to believe the thermostat is opening. I'm beginning to think the problem is either insufficient air flow or coolant flow through the radiator but this is only a guess & i have some pics of the thermo set i was using & how i've set the car up with an engine driven fan. If i've done something wrong in either of these set ups i welcome any feedback as i just want my car fixed right. Before i post pics though, after reading some posts concerning heater cores i might add that i did replace the original core with a new aftermarket one & it is not exactly the same size etc as the original GMH one. It fitted in the heater assembly well but i did notice it isn't as thick as the GMH one. I really do hope this isn't part of the problem as it was a nightmare to bolt the heater in with the EFI motor in the bay & i don't want to have to pull it out again. Anyhow here is the DC fan i was running along with the shroud i made.
On the reverse side of the shroud you can see the foam tape i applied to seal around the shroud in an attempt to make sure the fan pulled air through the radiator core, not from the engine bay. This set up worked reasonably well at low speeds, although after long periods of sitting in slow moving or stationary traffic eventualy the car would start to heat up. On the motorways this set up worked OK cruising on 1500-200rpm but i had to run the fan constantly & giving the car revs saw the temp climb. With the fan by itself without the shroud it was OK cruising etc but slow moving or stationary traffic saw the temp climb. This is how the car is now, an 82mm fan spacer & a six blade plastic fan. This has worked the best so far but again in slow moving or stationary traffic the temp will climb quickly. I know a shroud may help here but finding one that will fit has been difficult plus this was just an experiment & temp fix as this car is my only form of transport at the moment so i needed something that worked better than the set up i was using. I'm hoping to replace it with a thermo fan set up that works properly.
If it is more likely to be insufficient air flow,i'm not sure what to try next, twin 12 inch thermos seem to be a common fitment on these Toranas but i'm not sure how i'm going to mount them. I don't like mounting them directly to the core as i had one rub through & cause a leaking radiator on a 202 LH i had years ago. Heres why i'm having trouble with mounting fans on the rear side of the radiator (& a cowl for the engine driven fan). Rather than cut away the flange on the edge of the chassis rails as some people do, i trimmed 15mm off the sides of the radiator that a cowl etc normally bolts to. There is still 10mm left & i have mounted the DC fan & shroud here with no problems, it just makes it hard to use AU or VT-VX fans or the like as they are too wide.
I've looked at aftermarket 12 inch fans but the ones i've looked at aren't mounted in shrouds like the AU etc, i'm assuming they will need to be??. Anyhow i'll keep going through some of the checks that have been suggested here & confirm that everything else in the system is working as it should before i try anything else. Thanks again everyone for the advice given.
On the reverse side of the shroud you can see the foam tape i applied to seal around the shroud in an attempt to make sure the fan pulled air through the radiator core, not from the engine bay. This set up worked reasonably well at low speeds, although after long periods of sitting in slow moving or stationary traffic eventualy the car would start to heat up. On the motorways this set up worked OK cruising on 1500-200rpm but i had to run the fan constantly & giving the car revs saw the temp climb. With the fan by itself without the shroud it was OK cruising etc but slow moving or stationary traffic saw the temp climb. This is how the car is now, an 82mm fan spacer & a six blade plastic fan. This has worked the best so far but again in slow moving or stationary traffic the temp will climb quickly. I know a shroud may help here but finding one that will fit has been difficult plus this was just an experiment & temp fix as this car is my only form of transport at the moment so i needed something that worked better than the set up i was using. I'm hoping to replace it with a thermo fan set up that works properly.
If it is more likely to be insufficient air flow,i'm not sure what to try next, twin 12 inch thermos seem to be a common fitment on these Toranas but i'm not sure how i'm going to mount them. I don't like mounting them directly to the core as i had one rub through & cause a leaking radiator on a 202 LH i had years ago. Heres why i'm having trouble with mounting fans on the rear side of the radiator (& a cowl for the engine driven fan). Rather than cut away the flange on the edge of the chassis rails as some people do, i trimmed 15mm off the sides of the radiator that a cowl etc normally bolts to. There is still 10mm left & i have mounted the DC fan & shroud here with no problems, it just makes it hard to use AU or VT-VX fans or the like as they are too wide.
I've looked at aftermarket 12 inch fans but the ones i've looked at aren't mounted in shrouds like the AU etc, i'm assuming they will need to be??. Anyhow i'll keep going through some of the checks that have been suggested here & confirm that everything else in the system is working as it should before i try anything else. Thanks again everyone for the advice given.
#23
_ass308_
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 07:35 PM
matt i know what u mean about the thicker standard heater core.i too have the after market core.the guy at the radiator shop told me the knew one was more efficent.i took both down.long story.that part should be fine.
have u checked to make sure u arent getting any hose cavitation.
the guy at pwr told me one 16inch 3000rpm fan was better than 2 12 inch fans,that they offered.when i bought my set up.
also that photo 4th above,it looks like the top hose goes down,makeing a high point at the radiator.i know my 308 hose goes up,high point at thermostat.i have know idea what this means,just pointing out a difference
its a bit of mucking around,but maybee swap the radiator from the 355 over.its a pwr from memory.cant remember if its 1 fan or 2,but i remember u saying it worked fine.
good luck.
have u checked to make sure u arent getting any hose cavitation.
the guy at pwr told me one 16inch 3000rpm fan was better than 2 12 inch fans,that they offered.when i bought my set up.
also that photo 4th above,it looks like the top hose goes down,makeing a high point at the radiator.i know my 308 hose goes up,high point at thermostat.i have know idea what this means,just pointing out a difference
its a bit of mucking around,but maybee swap the radiator from the 355 over.its a pwr from memory.cant remember if its 1 fan or 2,but i remember u saying it worked fine.
good luck.
#24
_BambooRon_
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Posted 09 February 2010 - 08:03 PM
Ive read all this stuff about overheating,
one thing not mentioned if a radiator is left out of the
car without water, the brown shit inside curls up away from inside
of the tubes-shake one when dry and listen.
Doesn.t matter how "clean things look"-get it cleaned
or "i don't think its that, because"-brought the best undone
go back to basics-it didn't overheat before and u changed the pump
why wouldn't u double check that
and finally stock metal fans throw fins through the bonnet
good luck
one thing not mentioned if a radiator is left out of the
car without water, the brown shit inside curls up away from inside
of the tubes-shake one when dry and listen.
Doesn.t matter how "clean things look"-get it cleaned
or "i don't think its that, because"-brought the best undone
go back to basics-it didn't overheat before and u changed the pump
why wouldn't u double check that
and finally stock metal fans throw fins through the bonnet
good luck
#25
_nial8r_
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 10:38 AM
And when i do i drill a 1/8 hole in it so if it decides its not going to play than at least there is some flow and it also helps when bleeding air out of the system.
thats a bloody good idea, but one question ?? wouldnt it cause the thermostat to take longer to open ??
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