Bambooron makes the best statement yet, get back to basics. All the talk about thermo fans and drawing enough air goes out the window above 60, and look at my A9X from the factory. They had a 308, 2 core radiator with a 12" thermofan. You can't tell me Holden would allow that out the door if they knew it wasn't up to the task. The race cars running 400HP used the same thing.....
OVERHEATING ISSUES IN EFI V8 LH
Started by
_LH SLR 3300_
, Feb 08 2010 05:42 PM
58 replies to this topic
#27
TerrA LX
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:29 AM
If the fan is flush mounted a shroud like this will only reduce available air flow to the radiator. It will effectively reduce the efficiency of the radiator in a direct percentage to the covered area.
Air flow is usually indicated by the symptoms you have described for example hot going slow and cooling air flow when moving fast but coolant flow will also play a part here, coolant flow will be diagnosed by a temp difference greater than 10 deg C on the top and bottom hose.
#28
View GaragePosted 10 February 2010 - 02:13 PM
He did say it was new, but there is always a chance that it was a Friday on the production line - is there any way to check that all cooling fins are clear and flowing water?one thing not mentioned if a radiator is left out of the
car without water, the brown shit inside curls up away from inside
of the tubes-shake one when dry and listen.
Doesn.t matter how "clean things look"-get it cleaned
#29
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:42 PM
Shrouds need depth so air can be pulled through from every where.
From what I can see your shroud simply covers 40% of the radiator and the fan takes care of rest.
I know you dont have much space so the EL dual fan setup which covers most of the radiator with 2 fans
would better.
From what I can see your shroud simply covers 40% of the radiator and the fan takes care of rest.
I know you dont have much space so the EL dual fan setup which covers most of the radiator with 2 fans
would better.
#30
_LH SLR 3300_
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 04:59 PM
Thanks again to all who replied to this thread. EL/EF & AU Falcon twin thermos have been mentioned alot, so can anyone tell me what these are? I was given them so i have no idea what they are out of other than they are Ford.
TerrA LX, you mentioned that the shroud i made effectively restricted the airflow through the radiator, which i believe to, & fuzzypumper also suggested fan shrouds need depth, which also makes sense to me. I have a PWR crossflow alloy radiator in my SLR with a 16 inch SPAL thermo & after the problems i'm having with my Orchid LH i ordered a cowl from PWR for my SLR. It cost $130 & this is what i got.
Judging by the experience i had with a flat cowl on my Orchid LH plus the advice from TerrA LX & fuzzypumper, i'm wondering if this alloy PWR shroud will cause similar problems with my SLR. I don't know about anyone else but i feel if this set up will cause overheating issues like i've had with my Orchid LH, why would a well known & reputable buisness like PWR sell a product like this? I thought i was getting a custom built shroud to suit the radiator i purchased from them but this is just a flat sheet of alloy with a hole cut in it & i could've easily made one myself if i knew that's all it was. Any thoughts??Oh yeah before i start pulling the car to pieces trying to determine if the water pump is buggered ( i don't how else to tell without physically looking for obvious signs of premature wear or damage etc with the pump off the car) or sending the two month old radiator off to be pulled apart & cleaned out, i thought i'd give a run down on how the car performed today. As with the past few days, the drive to work was good, sat consistantly on 170F on the expressway, got up to 180F at slow speed (40-50kph)on the suburban roads just near work. On the way home it sat on a consistant 180F until i hit stationary traffic where within minutes it rose to 190-200F. After 10-15 minutes of crawling along in heavy traffic, it was off the dial, over 210F. While traffic was moving, say around 40-60kph for five or so minutes & air flow was going through the radiator, it cooled down to 190F. Stop at a red light & it would quickly rise to 200+. I got it home & hosed the radiator with the engine running for five minutes. This brought the temp down to 175-180F.
TerrA LX, you mentioned that the shroud i made effectively restricted the airflow through the radiator, which i believe to, & fuzzypumper also suggested fan shrouds need depth, which also makes sense to me. I have a PWR crossflow alloy radiator in my SLR with a 16 inch SPAL thermo & after the problems i'm having with my Orchid LH i ordered a cowl from PWR for my SLR. It cost $130 & this is what i got.
Judging by the experience i had with a flat cowl on my Orchid LH plus the advice from TerrA LX & fuzzypumper, i'm wondering if this alloy PWR shroud will cause similar problems with my SLR. I don't know about anyone else but i feel if this set up will cause overheating issues like i've had with my Orchid LH, why would a well known & reputable buisness like PWR sell a product like this? I thought i was getting a custom built shroud to suit the radiator i purchased from them but this is just a flat sheet of alloy with a hole cut in it & i could've easily made one myself if i knew that's all it was. Any thoughts??Oh yeah before i start pulling the car to pieces trying to determine if the water pump is buggered ( i don't how else to tell without physically looking for obvious signs of premature wear or damage etc with the pump off the car) or sending the two month old radiator off to be pulled apart & cleaned out, i thought i'd give a run down on how the car performed today. As with the past few days, the drive to work was good, sat consistantly on 170F on the expressway, got up to 180F at slow speed (40-50kph)on the suburban roads just near work. On the way home it sat on a consistant 180F until i hit stationary traffic where within minutes it rose to 190-200F. After 10-15 minutes of crawling along in heavy traffic, it was off the dial, over 210F. While traffic was moving, say around 40-60kph for five or so minutes & air flow was going through the radiator, it cooled down to 190F. Stop at a red light & it would quickly rise to 200+. I got it home & hosed the radiator with the engine running for five minutes. This brought the temp down to 175-180F.
#31
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 06:10 PM
On my last LH torana i ran a similar rad/fan setup on my stroked 308 to the one you are using now and had the same problems, when the car was on the move it was fine but in traffic it would overheat. The first thing i tried was taking the rad to a rad shop and having them chemically clean and flush/pressure test it, i then refitted but no joy..next step was to fit a bigger fan and my mechanic mates at the time suggested i use one off a 351 falcon because the blades and fan design were much beefier and would push more air then the crappy stock holden fan. This helped with overall temps but still didnt fully solve the problem so after more research i then discovered that the LH 5ltr toranas were meant to come from the factory with a full fan shroud? perhaps this was why it was overheating i thought..so i tracked down a part number and bought a new one which i was told was for a 5ltr LH and after a little bit of grinding it fit like factory..take for road test and still same problem..great at running speeds (even cooler then previously) but again didn't fully solve the problem of traffic temps..so finally after pulling my hair out and almost ready to give up on it i decided that maybe the thermostat wasnt working properly like the rad shop had said. So i pulled the thermostat out and what do i find..its buggered the body of it was just about melted..and wasn't opening at all it was just stuck partly open..sooo..down to shop and buy another one and decide to test it in boiling water prior to fitment and what do you know! its faulty..take back to shop and get another one of same brand and yep another stuffed one..take back again really pissed off and and bingo! got one that actually worked. So after all that the temp problems were well and truely solved it ran cooler all round and i never had a problem with it again up until the day i sold it..a lot of drama for one little thermostat..although i might add fitting the shroud and fan were 2 of the best cooling mods i did to that thing!
P.s Sorry for the essay! but check that thermostat again! and fan shrouds are always good at directing more air through a radiator as long as the shroud face is fully seated against the rad and there is no air escaping through any large gaps. The EL/EF thermo setup looks like a good one if you can figure out how to mount it.
P.s Sorry for the essay! but check that thermostat again! and fan shrouds are always good at directing more air through a radiator as long as the shroud face is fully seated against the rad and there is no air escaping through any large gaps. The EL/EF thermo setup looks like a good one if you can figure out how to mount it.
#32
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 06:39 PM
Placing anything flat against the radiator will restrict air flow.
#33
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:06 PM
those ford fans you have pictured a few posts up are of a ef falcon if they are a two plug.You will probably have issuses fitting those in the engine bay of a torry as they are wider than the au's as the fans arent stagered as much as the au's.Does sound like a airflow issue.When your fixed fan was on,did you at idle drop it in neutral and bring the revs up at all to see if that helped??
#34
Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:09 PM
Sorry if this has already been asked, but you don't have anything in front of the radiator do you? Engine/trans oil cooler, air con condenser?
#35
_LH SLR 3300_
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:39 PM
those ford fans you have pictured a few posts up are of a ef falcon if they are a two plug.You will probably have issuses fitting those in the engine bay of a torry as they are wider than the au's as the fans arent stagered as much as the au's.Does sound like a airflow issue.When your fixed fan was on,did you at idle drop it in neutral and bring the revs up at all to see if that helped??
Thanks for your reply, yes the twin thermos are a two plug set up & they are too wide to fit in my car. Yes i did put the car in neutral at the traffic lights & bring the revs up, but it made no difference in the temp.
#36
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:48 PM
Sorry if this has already been asked, but you don't have anything in front of the radiator do you? Engine/trans oil cooler, air con condenser?
No, there is nothing in front of the radiator. I did check the temp of the radiator hoses about half an hour or so after turning the engine off, the top hose was warm but the bottom one was cold. This could mean the thermostat is faulty right?!. But if this is the case, wouldn't the car run hot all the time, not just when it's stationary? It's been suggested that the radiator could be blocked but it was a brand new radiator & it seems strange it would block up as soon as the car was put on the road, cause it's had overheating issues since that day.
#37
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:48 PM
At this point do you know what the temp difference is between the top and bottom hose?
#38
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:43 PM
I did check the temp of the radiator hoses about half an hour or so after turning the engine off, the top hose was warm but the bottom one was cold. This could mean the thermostat is faulty right?!. But if this is the case, wouldn't the car run hot all the time, not just when it's stationary?
It would probably still run hotter then normal but mostly overheat when stationary which is exactly what mine did..depends how stuffed the thermostat is and how much water its letting through.
#39
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Posted 11 February 2010 - 01:03 AM
therostat or water pump my old commy did that and i changed the water pump
problem solvered
oh and why not run you old thermo fan at the front of the motor you just change the wires around ie neg is now pos
and it will blow instead of suck or vice versa
problem solvered
oh and why not run you old thermo fan at the front of the motor you just change the wires around ie neg is now pos
and it will blow instead of suck or vice versa
#40
Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:22 AM
Faulty thermostats can exhibit some strange behaviour that can be hard to pick up even with a bench test, just replace it and see as its a cheap option. The cold hose doesn't necessarily point to the thermostat but the fact that you seem to require such effective cooling could well mean that it isn't opening fully.I did check the temp of the radiator hoses about half an hour or so after turning the engine off, the top hose was warm but the bottom one was cold. This could mean the thermostat is faulty right?!. But if this is the case, wouldn't the car run hot all the time, not just when it's stationary?
It would probably still run hotter then normal but mostly overheat when stationary which is exactly what mine did..depends how stuffed the thermostat is and how much water its letting through.
To change the fan direction you'd also need to turn it over as they have curved blades. I wouldn't sit anything in front of the radiator.oh and why not run you old thermo fan at the front of the motor you just change the wires around ie neg is now pos
and it will blow instead of suck or vice versa
#41
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Posted 11 February 2010 - 07:59 AM
its sounds like the thermostat could be stuffed Matt as this is what it was doing in the LS1, as soon as the car was at a set of lights or in slow moving traffic the temp would go up and the fans would cut in but wouldnt shut off, the result was the thermostat was only opened enough to let a little bit of water pass through, and with the 304 as you know its a pretty quick job to do to check the thermostat, 2 X 10mm bolts and a new gasket might be worth having a look just so you can rule it out 
#42
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Posted 11 February 2010 - 09:43 AM
I did check the temp of the radiator hoses about half an hour or so after turning the engine off, the top hose was warm but the bottom one was cold. This could mean the thermostat is faulty right?!. But if this is the case, wouldn't the car run hot all the time, not just when it's stationary?
I think you will find heat soak and thermal convection has set in by this time, try it idling in the driveway after 5 minutes and pull over on the road when you spot a problem and measure then.
Sorry I was not more clear with my last post
#43
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Posted 11 February 2010 - 08:01 PM
Dont fit fans in front of the radiator as this will restrict flow,espscially when your cruising at higher speeds.Thermo fans with curved blades pull the most air,I have used a 16" curved blade fan with a big motor,ef fans and ba ones and all worked well.Is your radiator cap new?If the cap isnt holding pressure that will cause it to get hot and boil,the higher the cap pressure you use the higher the boiling point will be.Also might be worth trying some redline water wetter if you cant sort it out as we use it in our speedway car and it works really well.
#44
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Posted 11 February 2010 - 09:26 PM
Bambooron makes the best statement yet, get back to basics. All the talk about thermo fans and drawing enough air goes out the window above 60, and look at my A9X from the factory. They had a 308, 2 core radiator with a 12" thermofan. You can't tell me Holden would allow that out the door if they knew it wasn't up to the task. The race cars running 400HP used the same thing.....
Not the scene at the last bay to birdwood in SA last year. Crawling through the city at mainly 5-20km/h was too much for stock A9X systems. Not a nice day.
#45
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Posted 12 February 2010 - 06:34 AM
Baron, I used to think that too, the easy fix was wiring a switch into the thermo fan so I can turn it on if I know I will be in traffic. When I was doing testing and fixed the issue, I left my car running on a stinking hot 38 degree day for almost an hour, with the fan on, the temp never got over half way. Thats the standard A9X radiaotr....
#46
_Gunmetal LH_
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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:28 AM
My VN V6 was getting really hot in traffic, turned out the radiator was nearly blocked. (Got a hole in it one day then I cut it up after I took it out to have a look...) Put a VR V6- ALLOY radiator in it and it's been sweet. (Had to 'relieve' the underside of the bonnet with a hammer.)
The old radiator looked like it had good flow, could see coolant flowing through the pressure tank (Series1 no overflow) yet it was only flowing about 30%. The rest was full of this rusty mud?
Maybe see if the water pump doesn't have too much clearance behind the impeller?
The old radiator looked like it had good flow, could see coolant flowing through the pressure tank (Series1 no overflow) yet it was only flowing about 30%. The rest was full of this rusty mud?
Maybe see if the water pump doesn't have too much clearance behind the impeller?
#47
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Posted 12 February 2010 - 01:02 PM
Baron, I used to think that too, the easy fix was wiring a switch into the thermo fan so I can turn it on if I know I will be in traffic. When I was doing testing and fixed the issue, I left my car running on a stinking hot 38 degree day for almost an hour, with the fan on, the temp never got over half way. Thats the standard A9X radiaotr....
REDTAXI, it is one thing to sit and idle and another to stop/start creep along in a convoy with other stinking boiling cars. Mind you, these A9X cooling systems are getting long in the tooth and the cars are no longer absolutely stock/new any more. Also most A9X savy guys have a bypass switch now days but that did not save them on this day. 38 degrees has been a cool day of late in Australia.
My setup has not failed me once! Not even on a recent 43deg wedding day...........must get the A/C in real soon.
#48
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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:58 PM
I did that too Darky, Australia day a few years back it ran fine in the heat with all the traffic
#49
_miki76lx_
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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:17 PM
Hi from mick i have just come across your over heat issues i just had a look at your photos and the only thing i can pick is the shroud you have made is flat and when you are driving or stationary it still can only draw from the area of the fan diameter. if you mount your thermo fan back about 50mm then make the shroud in 4 sections angled toward the fan then the fan will pull from the total area of the radiator not just the fan diameter and while your at it try a 160 thermostat as well.And when i do i drill a 1/8 hole in it so if it decides its not going to play than at least there is some flow and it also helps when bleeding air out of the system.
thats a bloody good idea, but one question ?? wouldnt it cause the thermostat to take longer to open ??
Imagine you are travelling at high speed and the air velocity is trying to push through a circle the size of the fan not the radiator its like a funnel when you put fluid into it the fluid goes to the hole because its shaped that way but if the base of the funnel was flat it would be very slow for the fluid to get away. just my thoughts it might help im pretty sure that shrouds have a set back or an angle on them hope it helps from mick..
#50
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Posted 15 February 2010 - 08:09 PM
I did that too Darky, Australia day a few years back it ran fine in the heat with all the traffic
Are you stock?
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