Morning all.
Currently in discussion with a well known manufacturer of performance diff centres.
He has on hand a large Salisbury and a Banjo centre and is quoting me on a limited run of both. They will be made to accept current crwon wheel and pinions for cost effective swapover. Axles on the banjo are a current point of discussion however.
In order for me to confirm the go ahead, if we can sort some bugs...
who would be interested in purchasing one of these?
what spline would be preferred ?
anyone have a wish list for their diff?
Thanks
Welby
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#1
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:12 AM
#2
_Trentm_
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 03:30 PM
I would like a Quaife or Kaaz centre with 28 spline billett axles to suit my banjo housing please Welby.
#3
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 06:27 PM
I would like more info on what we might be getting first. What are the probable options? For the HQ V8 salisbury, there is already a place installing new BW LSD centres into them for $600. They do 28 spline, 31 might be an option.
#4
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 06:45 PM
Hi Chops,
I'm on this path following my experiences with my own Large Salisbury.
I have an Eaton true trac LSD currently, but its not an over the counter available item. In fact, Eaton don't have a listing for it. I've been down the path of the BW conversion and ran one for the 2nd and 3rd targa here. Nothing wrong with it other than its a 'bitsa' and the local diff guys keep telling me how hard it is to find parts.
The other option is a detroit locker and the are no good for the average bloke on the street.
I also need to rebuild the diff in the young blokes LX and want the most strength for the minimum buck. ( boys will be boys!, lets be realistic) I also like original parts where possible
So an Eaton Tru Trac / Positraction / KAAZ / Quaife would be ideal.
No one makes them yet.
So while i have one of these guys measuring it up for a limited run, my thoughts turned to the humble banjo, as there are more of them in Torana's than anthing else. I would suggest the fraud 9 inch running a close second.
(maybe someone could do a poll?)
I figure if a manufacturer is keen on building one, might as well build the other.
How many guys still run banjo's but want something that bit stronger or even just want an lsd. I'm just seeing a hole in the market that needs filling.
So what would you like?
I'm on this path following my experiences with my own Large Salisbury.
I have an Eaton true trac LSD currently, but its not an over the counter available item. In fact, Eaton don't have a listing for it. I've been down the path of the BW conversion and ran one for the 2nd and 3rd targa here. Nothing wrong with it other than its a 'bitsa' and the local diff guys keep telling me how hard it is to find parts.
The other option is a detroit locker and the are no good for the average bloke on the street.
I also need to rebuild the diff in the young blokes LX and want the most strength for the minimum buck. ( boys will be boys!, lets be realistic) I also like original parts where possible
So an Eaton Tru Trac / Positraction / KAAZ / Quaife would be ideal.
No one makes them yet.
So while i have one of these guys measuring it up for a limited run, my thoughts turned to the humble banjo, as there are more of them in Torana's than anthing else. I would suggest the fraud 9 inch running a close second.
(maybe someone could do a poll?)
I figure if a manufacturer is keen on building one, might as well build the other.
How many guys still run banjo's but want something that bit stronger or even just want an lsd. I'm just seeing a hole in the market that needs filling.
So what would you like?
#5
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 07:16 PM
More to the point, apples for apples, what sort of ball park figures are we looking at?
#6
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 07:24 PM
Has to be affordable.
untill i give them some final detail, i woon't know, but 5-600 is the target
untill i give them some final detail, i woon't know, but 5-600 is the target
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 07:34 PM
The only thing I would be interested in is if I bought a "street" 1974 (to avoid emissions) LH Torana. It would need a re-designed and muchly strengthened differential carrier that could ideally accept 31 spline axles and either a Richmond or Lock Right Lokka. There is already a commercially available 28 spline full spool for banjos, so it's obvious 28 spline axles already fit the banjo. A VN yoke on the pinion would be good, but I'm told this is a straight forward machining job.
But I'll probably win tatts before I find a 1974 LH that can be salvaged, so I'll probably wind up buying another UC. Which means it'll get an HQ V8 Salisbury. So apart from the BW LSD conversion I already mentioned (that will hopefully accept a Richmond or Lock Right Lokka), some alternative ratios would be very nice. 3.7, 3.9 and 4.11 would fill the gap between the available 3.55 and 4.44.
But I'll probably win tatts before I find a 1974 LH that can be salvaged, so I'll probably wind up buying another UC. Which means it'll get an HQ V8 Salisbury. So apart from the BW LSD conversion I already mentioned (that will hopefully accept a Richmond or Lock Right Lokka), some alternative ratios would be very nice. 3.7, 3.9 and 4.11 would fill the gap between the available 3.55 and 4.44.
#8
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 08:51 PM
I would consider running a banjo or holden salisbury if it would stand upto 3-400hp for around 5-600.
I would assume they are going to need custom axles too?
I would assume they are going to need custom axles too?
#9
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 09:06 PM
How hard is it to get new gear sets for the 10 bolt salisbury ?
I thought they were NLA.
Is someone making these?
I thought they were NLA.
Is someone making these?
#10
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:22 PM
They are NLA. 3.9 was available but are harder to find than an honest politician. It's just the hump from 3.55 - 4.44 is a bit too big and at least one ratio in between would really be needed. They can be made, but the tooling means they won't be cheap.
And the custom axles will be the easy bit. If you use Moser, they wil be the expensive bit.
And the custom axles will be the easy bit. If you use Moser, they wil be the expensive bit.
#11
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Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:18 AM
If a something like a trutrac style hemi were to be made for a holden banjo , the aim would have to be to remove as many weaknesses as possible
1 being the hemi
2 the axles ,good quality 28spline axles are available at very reasonable prices & you can have them matched to original or aftermarket brakes ,widths etc
3 the diff yoke ! , a 1350 series 9" style diff yoke would be plenty ample & allows a multitude of great driveshaft options , that will match at both ends as all the good slip & weld yokes are in 1350 series ! !
my 2c
1 being the hemi
2 the axles ,good quality 28spline axles are available at very reasonable prices & you can have them matched to original or aftermarket brakes ,widths etc
3 the diff yoke ! , a 1350 series 9" style diff yoke would be plenty ample & allows a multitude of great driveshaft options , that will match at both ends as all the good slip & weld yokes are in 1350 series ! !
my 2c
#12
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Posted 04 December 2011 - 12:34 PM
1350 is rated at over 1000 horse power, so a diff thats capable of holding 500 horses does not even need 1330 series uni's. Even 1310 series would be fine, no use making everything stronger than the diff itself. You only need to be about 25% stronger than the horse power you are making otherwise you are wasting money.
#13
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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:21 PM
I don't know too much about diffs, but thought I'd add my interest...
I'm after an affordable option for strengthening my driveline and currently have a single spinner banjo with course spline axles,
I like the idea of a strong lsd centre that would fit the banjo housing and would definitely be interested in purchasing one if it were available
I'm after an affordable option for strengthening my driveline and currently have a single spinner banjo with course spline axles,
I like the idea of a strong lsd centre that would fit the banjo housing and would definitely be interested in purchasing one if it were available
Edited by SLEDGE, 04 December 2011 - 01:21 PM.
#14
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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:35 PM
Changing the side gears and axles to fine spline would make your ban go stronger for not a lot of dollars. Good luck finding an LSD centre for under $300.
#15
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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:58 PM
Changing the side gears and axles to fine spline would make your ban go stronger for not a lot of dollars. Good luck finding an LSD centre for under $300.
Yeah, i've been quoted $950 for a recond' banjo lsd centre.. won't be going down that route considering I think I'll be able to do a borgwarner conversion for under a grand. (with new discs etc.)
#16
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Posted 08 December 2011 - 02:43 PM
Id be interested Welby.
the finer spline the axles, the better, as we all know how weak coarse spline axles in Banjos can be.
For $500 for a choice of ratios and knowing it was new and tight, youd have to be happy as long as the axles wernt going to bend you over backwards and frOck you price wise.
the finer spline the axles, the better, as we all know how weak coarse spline axles in Banjos can be.
For $500 for a choice of ratios and knowing it was new and tight, youd have to be happy as long as the axles wernt going to bend you over backwards and frOck you price wise.
#17
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Posted 14 December 2011 - 10:20 PM
I really like the idea, as long as there is a decent ratio choice, the only bummer being I want a disc brake rear. By the time i have the center, new axles and disc brake carriers, it might make it not worth it versus a 9-inch or BW. Still, good idea.
#18
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Posted 15 December 2011 - 09:23 PM
I'd be interested. 3.08 fine spline LSD.
Phillip
Phillip
#19
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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:30 PM
i'd love a new 3.36 fine spline lsd or detroit locker banjo. Warren.
#20
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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:23 AM
how much power will the banjo gear set take but if your strengthening everything else thats going to become the weak point just my thought but unless youwere in a category of racing that specifies no diff change id go bw or 9inch depending on how much power will eventually be put through it
#21
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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:44 PM
i'd love a new 3.36 fine spline lsd or detroit locker banjo. Warren.
Me too, a fine spline 3.36 LSD centre would suit me just fine.
Indeed I'd probably take any fine spline LSD centre at this juncture...
Let me know how you go please Welby..
Cheers, TB
#22
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Posted 16 December 2011 - 03:48 PM
banjo LSD fine spline plus set of axles. please - happy for $600 for center and also not sure of axle cost. but have been told this could be somewhere @ $1200 for a billet set - is this right ?
1200 seems high for a set.
1200 seems high for a set.
#23
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Posted 17 December 2011 - 11:52 AM
I am interested in these diff centres thank you for raising the subject, there must be hundreds of XU-1's running around with a non functioning LSD.
I would prefer that some of their week points were ironed out before production. ( I trained as a Machinist many years ago )
There is also the issue of metal quality, some of the OS castings are of a poor quality having porosity and therefore weaker.
Holden made these centres in different forms with different lublication holes for the cone clutches, I would think the latter one would be better, but don't ask me which is which?
You probably know this, but I find that the week points in the Banjo diffs is the small size of the spider gear pin, and the thin flange that the crownwheel bolts too.
It is not so much that the componets are week it is more that everything moves and floggs out and the excessive clearances smash the componets, the crownwheel and pinon gears themselves stand up to pleanty of punishment, they stood the SLR 5000, just the extra axle length gave more axle wind up which did not help.
A positive interlock between the two halves of the centre would be a distinct advantage as they always scuff the mating faces from movement, this loosenes the assembly bolts and allows the spider gear pin to come loose, then it floggs out.
A pin in both ends of the spider gear pin would be handy too. BW centres also suffer scuffing and comming loose too I am told.
The two bearing caps do tend to spread too if put under stress, but there is not much we can do about that, this probably the reason Holden changed housings to Salsbury ones. ( they move around from axle housing flex anyway )
I live in the country and take long drives to my XU-1 Club events, so I intend to use a 3.08 gear set as it is the best all round ratio, but I Won't be using a 50 - 90 cam as it would likely not be running well at 3000 rpm.
I have not been able to find a centre for the 3.08 gears and when they do come up they are usually stuffed, anyone buying a second hand one is really playing Russan Roulette.
The 3.55/ 3.336 centre does not suit the 3.08/ 2.78 gears very well as the side adjusters have to be set over to one side, this also makes the clearance between the bearing cap and the back of the centre casing considerably less.
I have converted 3.55 centres in an open centre set up before by machining the crownwheel flange thinner, like Holden did, however this does not work for the LSD centres as the bolt head counterbores in the back of the crownwheel flange are machined deeper.
I have wanted to have fine spline axles forged, but have been told the forging equipment for the small axles was no longer in existance, I ended up having axle splines machine cut, which will not be nearly as strong.
I used Commodore 4cyl station wagon axles which are quite similar and have the axle diameter to allow machining almost a full length spline, they just have a taper on the very end.
These axles being from a commercial vehicle are thicker than normal 4cyl axles and have the same stud pattern as the Torana wheels using the left over updated LH - UC rims, the wheel studs are a bit bigger but I think I can live with that.
They have taper bearings which I have to convert and are centre locating rather than stud locating.
One day i will finish setting it up, but need a decent centre first.
Small Salsbury Commodore, WB commercials and UC Torana all use crownwheel and pinion gears interchangable with EH to HZ 6cyl models and LC / LJ Torana so there should still be a few gears sets that haven't made the one way trip to China.
Price might be the detirmining factor I will be interested to see what they come up with.
Mike
I would prefer that some of their week points were ironed out before production. ( I trained as a Machinist many years ago )
There is also the issue of metal quality, some of the OS castings are of a poor quality having porosity and therefore weaker.
Holden made these centres in different forms with different lublication holes for the cone clutches, I would think the latter one would be better, but don't ask me which is which?
You probably know this, but I find that the week points in the Banjo diffs is the small size of the spider gear pin, and the thin flange that the crownwheel bolts too.
It is not so much that the componets are week it is more that everything moves and floggs out and the excessive clearances smash the componets, the crownwheel and pinon gears themselves stand up to pleanty of punishment, they stood the SLR 5000, just the extra axle length gave more axle wind up which did not help.
A positive interlock between the two halves of the centre would be a distinct advantage as they always scuff the mating faces from movement, this loosenes the assembly bolts and allows the spider gear pin to come loose, then it floggs out.
A pin in both ends of the spider gear pin would be handy too. BW centres also suffer scuffing and comming loose too I am told.
The two bearing caps do tend to spread too if put under stress, but there is not much we can do about that, this probably the reason Holden changed housings to Salsbury ones. ( they move around from axle housing flex anyway )
I live in the country and take long drives to my XU-1 Club events, so I intend to use a 3.08 gear set as it is the best all round ratio, but I Won't be using a 50 - 90 cam as it would likely not be running well at 3000 rpm.
I have not been able to find a centre for the 3.08 gears and when they do come up they are usually stuffed, anyone buying a second hand one is really playing Russan Roulette.
The 3.55/ 3.336 centre does not suit the 3.08/ 2.78 gears very well as the side adjusters have to be set over to one side, this also makes the clearance between the bearing cap and the back of the centre casing considerably less.
I have converted 3.55 centres in an open centre set up before by machining the crownwheel flange thinner, like Holden did, however this does not work for the LSD centres as the bolt head counterbores in the back of the crownwheel flange are machined deeper.
I have wanted to have fine spline axles forged, but have been told the forging equipment for the small axles was no longer in existance, I ended up having axle splines machine cut, which will not be nearly as strong.
I used Commodore 4cyl station wagon axles which are quite similar and have the axle diameter to allow machining almost a full length spline, they just have a taper on the very end.
These axles being from a commercial vehicle are thicker than normal 4cyl axles and have the same stud pattern as the Torana wheels using the left over updated LH - UC rims, the wheel studs are a bit bigger but I think I can live with that.
They have taper bearings which I have to convert and are centre locating rather than stud locating.
One day i will finish setting it up, but need a decent centre first.
Small Salsbury Commodore, WB commercials and UC Torana all use crownwheel and pinion gears interchangable with EH to HZ 6cyl models and LC / LJ Torana so there should still be a few gears sets that haven't made the one way trip to China.
Price might be the detirmining factor I will be interested to see what they come up with.
Mike
#24
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Posted 17 December 2011 - 01:04 PM
Thanks everyone for the input.
as soon as i have some news i will let you all know.
as soon as i have some news i will let you all know.
#25
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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:33 PM
hi chopper, who sells the 28 spline full spools for banjo's?The only thing I would be interested in is if I bought a "street" 1974 (to avoid emissions) LH Torana. It would need a re-designed and muchly strengthened differential carrier that could ideally accept 31 spline axles and either a Richmond or Lock Right Lokka. There is already a commercially available 28 spline full spool for banjos, so it's obvious 28 spline axles already fit the banjo. A VN yoke on the pinion would be good, but I'm told this is a straight forward machining job.
But I'll probably win tatts before I find a 1974 LH that can be salvaged, so I'll probably wind up buying another UC. Which means it'll get an HQ V8 Salisbury. So apart from the BW LSD conversion I already mentioned (that will hopefully accept a Richmond or Lock Right Lokka), some alternative ratios would be very nice. 3.7, 3.9 and 4.11 would fill the gap between the available 3.55 and 4.44.
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