642 replies to this topic

[TerrA LX]

Both the Govt. & Holden have said that no decision has been made.

We all know what that means...

[Dr Terry]

Well no 2 for how long? I hadn't seen the latest figures because last time I looked the dunny and fraud where not on the list of top selling cars. From the peak of dunny sales in 1988 of 94,642 to 2012 where it was down to 30,532. People are buying other cars just not the dunny.

The thing we have to remember is VIABLE BUSINESS. You don't run a business that stays in the red for very long as its pointless and just a non viable money trap. Holden is obviously not making money so something has to change either it closes its doors or they learn how to become viable which means big changes not following the same downhill path they have been on.

Crux of the matter here is Australia is that we are out of whack with the world and simply can't compete with our very high wages and costs. Doubt very much a dunnydore factory worker wants to be paid a bowl of rice and the consumer obviously doesn't want to pay anymore than the competition. Big cars are a dying breed, the only exception seems to be 4x4's which seem to be driven by every soccer mum in the metro area (and yet never go offroad).




Oh look I don't disagree on not the ugliest car in the world (sold today) but boy Holden where the style kings in the 50, 60's and seventies then for some reason they just threw style out the door and adopted the dunny and became bland and boring.

Remember this is the amazing company that had the HK GTS, Hatchback Torrie, A9X, L34, nearly released the amazing GTR-X, The mighty FJ, solid shapely EH etc. These where all amazing shapes and made fraud green with envy as Holdens where the obvious king of style and had both 2/4 door full sized and the mid sized solutions that grabbed your desire to buy. That's why Brock did so well with the mods to the dunny. He was just trying to inject some form of excitement from such a bland boring base. IMO it nearly got to XD/XE ugly with just as much cheap plastic at times over the dunnys run.

I would far prefer the bland looking Hyundai Sonata Hybrid than to be seen owning any dunny. The dunnys when driving along remind me of a blowfish with 4 wheels and mouth slightly adjar. Had a girl that looked that ugly decades ago but at least I was totally blotto drunk and it was a very dark room..... LOL

Look at some of the hot hatchs from Europe for what you can do from a styling point of view to what is so boring about a dunny. Take a look at some of the Merc Taxi's that have given a real shake to the typical style of a big 4 door car. You get in a dunny and it feels like a whale its no M3 even with the power of the LSA, its just doesn't give you that drivers car feel. It feels like you just ate a few double beef whoppers. You get out of the M3 and its like pin point accurate guided missile. The dunny just doesn't feel like a $100k car inside or out.

Taxi's don't have to be shaped like the Pope mobile.

Several points to make here.

Firstly, it doesn't help your argument to denigrate the Commodore by calling it a "dunnydoor". I'm a dyed in the wool Holden & Aussie car fan, but I don't go around poo pooing Asian & Euro cars.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are many people out there who would describe our beloved early Holdens & Toranas as very boring & bland, not me BTW. Also I've haven't met too many who think that the Hyundai Sonata is a good looking car, but that's all very subjective & not what we are discussing.

A BMW M3 is a very expensive (overpriced IMO) SMALL RWD car, about the only thing it shares with a VF Commodore is the fact that it's RWD. It's also quite small (did I mention that ?), Personally I can only just fit in the front seat, while the rear seat is out of the question. The VF is a competitor for the 7-series BMW, not the little 3-series.

Have you actually driven a VF ? They are one of the best handling large cars on the market, the steering is "pin point accurate", certainly better than some of your M/Benzes. The Commodore can't be compared to FWD 'shopping trolleys', either. BTW the VF is not $100,000, they are $35,000 on the road, slightly cheaper than the M3.

On your point, that car making should be a VIABLE BUSINESS, show me one car making country on the planet that doesn't subsidise its car industry. So you're quite happy to close down the Aussie car industry & put 50,000-60,000 workers on the dole & then go out a purchase a heavily subsidised Korean or German car. I can't understand your logic.

Dr Terry

[eyepeeler]

Dr Terrry, would you like to see Holden survive cause its Holden and part of our history or to save jobs? Or is it a combination of both?
How many cars have to be sold combined with how much subsidy to keep Holden going?
I grew up in Holden's, LC GTR, HX Monaro 4 door, VC SL/E, VK Calais. My kids are in a Kluger. Times change.
Should Holden drop the commodore and build a totally different car, either big or small?
I would hate to lose Holden and it is bad for our country for so many job loses, but what needs to be done, AND to what extent, how much subsidy, what tarrif?
Does the subsidy needed to keep Holden going exceed that of other countries?

[yel327]

I think they need to build or if not at least sell what people want. Not everyone wants fuel economy forced down their throat, not everyone wants a diesel and especially wants to pay a premium for it only to sell it prior to even breaking even on the purchase price.

 

I think to survive they need to build a smaller car, HZ sedan size. I look at my V2 CV8 side by side with my HJ Premier and the Premier looks small. The V2 is dwarfed by a VF. For those who want a bigger car they can buy a Statesman. And as a derivative they need a wagon version, a cab-chassis and the same thing with a tub (like Ford do). Offer a small diesel for those who subscribe to the diesel myth, a 6cyl of sorts and a V8 but offer them across the range. The 6.0L auto engine will easily give you 10L/100 highway and 14 around town in a smaller car, and this is as good or better than any 6cyl auto LH-LX ever gave when new. Maybe for the 6cyl they can buy the design of Ford when they close up shop!

And most importantly don't make them ugly, or make them uglier in the re-vamp of the car for the next series simply to make it different. Holden are capable of building a car from scratch that looks great and still looks great - V2 case in point.

 

All that is left is the will for GM to do it, and I suspect they are currently navel gazing and not looking at the bigger picture.

[Indy Orange]

I work or a Government organisation and I cant believe we have mostly Hyundai i30s and some Mitsubishi outlanders ,if we wanted to support the Australian car industry why do we not have all Holden products in the fleet?

[Dr Terry]

I think LXSS350 you've also missed my point.

 

I'm not talking only about Holden, I'm talking about the entire Australian car industry. Also, when the VE/VF was in the planning stages (pre-GFC) the large RWD car WAS the car in demand. The GFC has seen the VF & the next gen. delayed by several years.

 

At the current time both of the Aussie-built GM-H cars, the Commodore & the Cruze, are selling quite well (usually both in the top 5), so they do make cars that many people want (not you though, quite obviously). The Falcon sadly is languishing in 20th spot, where it has been since their factory closure announcement  The problem is not so much gross local market sales, it's mainly the loss of export markets due to 2 factors, our high dollar & the failure of those markets due to the GFC. Toyota has been effected in the same manner.

 

Even if the Commodore was the top selling car in Australia, & Cruze no. 2 they would still be loosing money because of our high wages & other overheads (Carbon Tax anybody ?). Just like the other car makers in other countries, the ones you like to promote, Holden & Toyota need subsidies, tariffs or whatever to survive

 

Yes, there is a place for a smaller RWD car in Holden's line-up, similar to BMW 3 or Lexus LS 250, but GM-H are in no position currently to set-up & manufacture a 3rd car line.

 

Dr Terry

 

P.S. I think the M3 vs GTS argument is almost irrelevant, considering those cars sell in such miniscule numbers.

[yel327]

I think you are both right.

 

Aussie manufacturers need to be smart and build what we want.

 

But even if they do it is not easy as there isn't a level playing field.

[S pack]

Problem is that there is NO loyalty to locally made cars. I see government - federal, state & local plated klugers, forresters, hundi's, landcruisers, kia's, Honda's, and heaps of awd's that never leave the city, etc.

 

WTF is it that our governments (and a lot of local companies) just blindly ignore our local industry. Where do they think us peasants income is going to come from to pay their taxes and buy there products?

 

My two bob's worth,

Cheers,

Daryl.

Not wrong there Daryl.

 

For all our pollies (past and present) went on and on and on about being for jobs, jobs, jobs at election times what do our Govt's departments do? They buy imported stuff because it cheaper. Obviously there is no choice sometimes as some products just aren't made here anymore.

 

Hell, we can't even clothe our Defence Forces with Aussie made gear because our manufacturers (the few that are still operating here) are too expensive. No, we go and buy cheap rubbish Chinese boots (for example) that can't even make it through an Anzac Day Parade.

 

Pisses me off that our Govt's can't support Aussie companies, but that said, Aussie companies also need to take a long hard look at their counter productive policies of upping their prices because it's a Govt purchase.

 

My 5 cents

Cheers

Dave.

[Dr Terry]

I have not driven a standard vf dunny and I imagine that the vf GTS dunny is a better car than the standard dunny? Perish the thought but I shudder to think what I would think of the std whale.

I believe that if you did drive a normal everyday VF Commodore Evoke, you wouldn't have such a narrow minded view. They are the best & cheapest RWD car (of any size) on the Australian market bar none !!

 

I think that the GTS is built for a very select few rich people who prefer cars with silly low profile tyres, oversized alloy wheels & lots of add-on plastic bits. I think that a mid $40,000 V8 Calias would be a much better all round every day car than any HSV. BTW, an HSV is strictly speaking, not a Holden model & is not counted as such in the sales figures. 

 

My whole point here is why would you deny supporting the local industry, but are quite happy to buy an import which is propped up by their respective Government.

 

Both Toyota & Holden in Australia ARE viable if weren't for the so-called level playing field that handicaps them so badly.

 

Also I believe the current YTD production numbers for the Commodore (Utes, Caprices & exports included) is in the 80,000 area. So some people are actually buying them.

 

Dr Terry

[WhiteA9XS]

I think you are both right.
 
Aussie manufacturers need to be smart and build what we want.
 
But even if they do it is not easy as there isn't a level playing field.

agree , cark parks are getting smaller , families are getting smaller , falcon and commodore are same size as the 80,s era . clearly should be building small to mid size cars here to meet the market . I was hoping holden were going to build the concept torana .

[S pack]

My whole point here is why would you deny supporting the local industry, but are quite happy to buy an import which is propped up by their respective Government.

 

 

Dr Terry

Our farmers are ploughing their orange trees into the ground because they can't compete against the heavily subsidised American farmers dumping cheap oranges here.

Our Govt's, past and present continue to screw us with these so called free trade agreements.

[TerrA LX]

I think you are both right.
 
Aussie manufacturers need to be smart and build what we want.
 
But even if they do it is not easy as there isn't a level playing field.

I have only quoted you in point of case and not directly but this whole country is farked, and it is directly related to everyone wanting a $2 toaster and the same thing happened to the TV industry as well as white goods.
We all have ourselves to blame just as much as the gov't for not stopping the decline.

[TerrA LX]

I was hoping holden were going to build the concept torana .

Didn't they?
http://www.holden.co...n Holden Malibu

[Balfizar]

History,

              When Holdens were first produced there was a huge and long waiting list to get a Holden and people were prepared to wait "because it was an AUSTRALIAN car" there was a sense of pride in Australia.  We seem to have lost that in this consumer world.  Isn't it funny manufacturers want to sell to 1st world countries where there is a high disposable income but want to pay those people in that country a bowl of rice to maxamise their profit. So where is the high disposable income going to come from if we are all on a bowl of rice a week?

 

GM has pilaged ever country they manufacture in maximising local tax concessions and leveraging their bargaining power with threats of withdrawal for year and globally.  I can only imagine their bargaining position is enhanced now that Ford is pulling out and it will be exploited.

 

US global companies have a habit in a recession of pulling back manufacturing to the onshore home base to keep themselves at profitable capacity,  they will go back offshore when things get better.

 

Not until Australians get smart enough to see the true effect of buying local manufactured car will our auto industry become viable. Buy local, employ your kids, lower government handouts, have your taxes spent on services not industry support. 

 

Don't hold your breath, today is all about me,me,me and not the big picture.

 

When you buy an overseas manufactured car you export your money, and employ every worker that manufactured that car, including all the suppliers to that manufacturer, wake-up Australia! You are the cause of this drama, don't blame anyone else.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

Edited by Balfizar, 08 December 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[A9X]

I drive a v8 Calais, bought as a model run out 3 months ago.

I've had commodore company cars for 10 years.

 

Other than the stupid and dangerous a pillar, the car is fine. 

 

I don't own a personal HSV and have never had the inclination for one. ( came close on that callaway coupe though ). Not a comment on the car, i just prefer to throw my dollars into some classic muscle.

 

18 months ago i chose to rebuild my own LX four door instead of laying out 30 - 40 k on a new plastic fantastic. I thoroughly researched the market and couldn't find a suitable car for me in my budget. 

 

My wife 12 months ago bought a new car for work, she got her own choice on the same budget. I tried to steer her to the camry hybrid, having had 2 under my control in a previous company.

 

she bought a hyundai I something and while i ridiculed it for the first few months, i can't really complain about it.

 

Now i'm in a very interesting position of possibly having to replace a company fleet mid next year. 10 commercials and 18 cars, i'm just starting the soft research on the choices.

 

i'm not having fun doing this task.

 

I'm an aussie patriot, I'm not a bogan.

 

i genuinely use 'buy aussie' as first choice wherever i can

 

I don't normally comment on politics on this forum, but as a senior level manager for over 10 years , i'm telling you we are not selling the country out, we've given it away.

 

There are things the government can do to back holden without cash handouts. But i also believe GM is in it for itself first, the US second and the rest can fight it out for third.

Edited by A9X, 08 December 2013 - 12:50 PM.