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Holden Pull Out

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#51 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 01:03 PM

I drive a v8 Calais, bought as a model run out 3 months ago.

I've had commodore company cars for 10 years.

 

Other than the stupid and dangerous a pillar, the car is fine. 

 

I don't own a personal HSV and have never had the inclination for one. ( came close on that callaway coupe though ). Not a comment on the car, i just prefer to throw my dollars into some classic muscle.

 

18 months ago i chose to rebuild my own LX four door instead of laying out 30 - 40 k on a new plastic fantastic. I thoroughly researched the market and couldn't find a suitable car for me in my budget. 

 

My wife 12 months ago bought a new car for work, she got her own choice on the same budget. I tried to steer her to the camry hybrid, having had 2 under my control in a previous company.

 

she bought a hyundai I something and while i ridiculed it for the first few months, i can't really complain about it.

 

Now i'm in a very interesting position of possibly having to replace a company fleet mid next year. 10 commercials and 18 cars, i'm just starting the soft research on the choices.

 

i'm not having fun doing this task.

 

I'm an aussie patriot, I'm not a bogan.

 

i genuinely use 'buy aussie' as first choice wherever i can

 

I don't normally comment on politics on this forum, but as a senior level manager for over 10 years , i'm telling you we are not selling the country out, we've given it away.

 

There are things the government can do to back holden without cash handouts. But i also believe GM is in it for itself first, the US second and the rest can fight it out for third.

 

 

History,

              When Holdens were first produced there was a huge and long waiting list to get a Holden and people were prepared to wait "because it was an AUSTRALIAN car" there was a sense of pride in Australia.  We seem to have lost that in this consumer world.  Isn't it funny manufacturers want to sell to 1st world countries where there is a high disposable income but want to pay those people in that country a bowl of rice to maxamise their profit. So where is the high disposable income going to come from if we are all on a bowl of rice a week?

 

GM has pilaged ever country they manufacture in maximising local tax concessions and leveraging their bargaining power with threats of withdrawal for year and globally.  I can only imagine their bargaining position is enhanced now that Ford is pulling out and it will be exploited.

 

US global companies have a habit in a recession of pulling back manufacturing to the onshore home base to keep themselves at profitable capacity,  they will go back offshore when things get better.

 

Not until Australians get smart enough to see the true effect of buying local manufactured car will our auto industry become viable. Buy local, employ your kids, lower government handouts, have your taxes spent on services not industry support. 

 

Don't hold your breath, today is all about me,me,me and not the big picture.

 

When you buy an overseas manufactured car you export your money, and employ every worker that manufactured that car, including all the suppliers to that manufacturer, wake-up Australia! You are the cause of this drama, don't blame anyone else.

 

Cheers

Balfizar

 

 

Wow Wow both these posts are super accurate on how I feel.

Australia has sold itself for that bowl of rice and I am here watching this country fall apart and loose its identity and most importantly control of its assets for peanuts.

 

Shame on everyone the Lucky Country is taking the fast buck and saying stuff the future we will all be in the pine box so "who cares".

 

Total joke and I am ashamed to look around and see what we have done to Australia.


Edited by LXSS350, 08 December 2013 - 01:04 PM.


#52 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 01:11 PM

And.....you guys only have to look here, to see how easy it is for a country to go down the toilet.

 

We are losing/lost so much of our manufacturing base, it is crazy...and the sheep just seem to be happy to keep handing more and more of it away.

 

And I...along with many others were certainlly not happy about the bailout of the auto companies thanks to Obummer.  We are becoming a country of entitlements, not what we were built on. Everyone thinks they deserve this or that, and the government who wants votes keeps the handouts going.  If they let GM go bankrupt, sure it would have hurt jobs (and since we have given away so much of our manufacturing base, it makes it harder since there are fewer and fewer places for those workers to go), but to force the public to bail them out is a sad state of band aides really..



#53 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 01:20 PM

I dont get the reference to late model commy's being "80's sized"

 

Current model commy's are far, far bigger than the 80's ones. Park a VF beside a VK and have a look.

 

Hell, a VF dwarfs a VS, and a VS dwarfs a VK. 

 

They have made them bigger and bigger and bigger, there about the size of an 80's cadillac now days....

 

So i fully agree, go back to about the VK kinda dimensions, and you will likely sell a lot more. Keep the current drivelines, skim a few inches off every direction and skim a few tonnes of fat out of there ass and you may have a viable car.

 

Then build a PROPER frOckING UTE.

 

Cheers.



#54 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 01:42 PM

I dont get the reference to late model commy's being "80's sized"

 

Current model commy's are far, far bigger than the 80's ones. Park a VF beside a VK and have a look.

 

Hell, a VF dwarfs a VS, and a VS dwarfs a VK. 

 

They have made them bigger and bigger and bigger, there about the size of an 80's cadillac now days....

 

So i fully agree, go back to about the VK kinda dimensions, and you will likely sell a lot more. Keep the current drivelines, skim a few inches off every direction and skim a few tonnes of fat out of there ass and you may have a viable car.

 

Then build a PROPER frOckING UTE.

 

Cheers.

 

Bomber my 80's comment was the 80's mentality of dish up anything type excesses (ie bond,quintex etc) and we just brought on credit. Not related to the size of the dunny back then. I should have been clearer.

 

I obviously agree they should have went back to the mid sized dunny they had when it became crystal clear the market didn't want to buy and drive monster taxi's. Obviously vf equipment, fit/finish, technology, drivelines etc in a vk sized car would sell a heap more dunnys in 2013.


Edited by LXSS350, 08 December 2013 - 01:45 PM.


#55 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 02:04 PM

Cool were in agreeance, i've been reading your comments scratching my head over that one lol.

 

I think the VK was a nice size.

 

Cheers.



#56 _Lazarus_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 02:35 PM

I think people would be more inclined to buy 'whales' if there weren't cheaper options. Supercar racing remained fairly popular when it was still just Holden and Ford (buggered if I know why though). 

 

Go and stand in a Bunnings store for an hour and watch the dollars being exported at an alarming rate, while the traditional Aussie hardware shops and associated suppliers are going just as quickly down the proverbial gurgler.

 

People go there for two reasons, convenience and price.

 

Bunnings, like other mega-conglomerations, is all about cronyism, the bane of capitalism. Killrust for example, have gone downhill significantly since they were replaced on their shelves by White Knight paints, and you can be sure that Bunnings have some association with this new product which seems to be copied directly from the Killrust range, colours included.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.


Edited by GTR - U9X, 08 December 2013 - 02:45 PM.


#57 S pack

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 03:16 PM

One of the overriding factors in Australia is there are too many brands with too many available models.

If every manufacturer that currently has new vehicles for sale in OZ made their cars in OZ their OZ operations would all go broke very quickly.

Holden's needs better penetration into export markets, they simply can't rely on local demand to remain viable.


Edited by S pack, 08 December 2013 - 03:18 PM.


#58 Dr Terry

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:19 PM

Most guys on this forum (especially LXSS350) are missing my point. The problem has nothing to do with how big or small the car is & if the car is no. 1 seller. If they made it smaller, they would have to sell it at Camry prices & the sales margin would be even less. They still make the Cruze anyway, so size is not an issue. If it became no. 1 seller (which isn't that many more cars anyway) there is still not enough volume without more exports to make local manufacture viable. Toyota are looking at similar numbers, with smaller cars. If Holden go, Toyota will follow them straight out the door. Australia just becomes a huge quarry with few holiday resorts attached.

 

The problem is the local cost of manufacture, overheads (high wages, stupid carbon tax etc. etc.) are out of control unless something gives way. That could be a lower dollar (increase the cost of imports), tariffs (same result), government to help out (the same as the imports get now).

 

The 'level playing field' is not level at all.

 

Dr Terry



#59 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:43 PM

Dr Terry unless we want to live like the majority of people in countries like China that will never ever ever change. We can't go back to protectionism because even the mighty USA can't afford to stir the pot too much because they also get cheap products out of China.

 

Businesses just have to adapt or die. No good thinking Australia can survive on its own because we simply can't  like it or not we are part of the whole world market. Its the law of the jungle. Its also useless to whine about some German car company that gets more than we give Holden because like our mining industry the car industry in Germany is a bigger part of their economy.

 

World economics are a bloody complex issue that takes a series of novels to explain all the nascences and balances.

 

End of the day we are not competitive in this area with a company that is manufacturing within our shores.

 

It has everything to do with Holdens decision to make whales while every other manufacturer had much smaller cars as their mainstay. Management deserve to be stoned for killing a marvellous Australian Icon and misreading the industry they are in.



#60 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 04:57 PM


 

One of the overriding factors in Australia is there are too many brands with too many available models.

If every manufacturer that currently has new vehicles for sale in OZ made their cars in OZ their OZ operations would all go broke very quickly.

Holden's needs better penetration into export markets, they simply can't rely on local demand to remain viable.

 

To understand the cost of doing business in western countries take a look at how many USA companies have moved manufacturing facilities to Mexico. There are a whole heap of reasons why we are loosing manufacturing that CAN'T be changed no matter how much we hate it. Like it or not the world market is on our doorstep and if we want to compete we bloody well need to make a better product that people will buy or you might as well close the doors because you are going to go broke trying to win on price.

 

Nobody in the western world can compete with a bowl of rice a week.



#61 _ChaosWeaver_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:20 PM

For my 2 cent's, I agree with Dr Terry..........  the main reason Holden is in so much trouble, is because GM America heavily restrict the amount of car Holden are allowed to export...  Holden could make more & sell more cars for export if they were not prevented by GM....  Holden should have broke away from GM when they were 97% Australian components .....      Check this out if you haven't seen it.........   they were well aware of the problems ....          

Part 1.  

Part 2.  



#62 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:27 PM

I really wonder if wages are such a big issue?

 

I would like to see a breakdown of every single car produced, and what the wages payed to workers equate to the cost.

 

I have a feeling its very small, definitelly less than $1000 a car. 

 

Fixing the import tarrifs would solve this issue. 

 

Everyone belts on about wages, but theres no data showing how they fit in. I recon the Carbon tax was a bigger blow, and the heavily uneven trading scheme is the headshot.

 

Cheers.



#63 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:35 PM

400px-Australian_large_car_sales_1991_on



#64 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:40 PM

Wow, that proves the whole whale arguement. 



#65 _LS1 Taxi_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:43 PM

Damn that Ford whale has been on the nose for a decade!  



#66 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:47 PM

Its the same with all manufacturers in all countries their big taxi's where dying. Shame Holden management where so arrogant and thought we had taken a ride in the Dr's DeLorean and had arrived in back to the future when big cars outsold small cars.

 

Hell I remember in the 90's when I was in NY the biggest selling car was the Camry and this in the land of the everything big.

 

What gets up my goat is now Holden want all taxpayers to fund them like a charity for their obvious business f/u. The whale is dead and no matter how good the 7 series or the vf dunny they will never outsell the mid and small cars. Why base your business on such a model?

Crazy crazy crazy.


Edited by LXSS350, 08 December 2013 - 05:51 PM.


#67 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:47 PM

Amazing isnt it, considering how brilliant the BA onwards XR6-T is, honestly the best car made in Aus atm. To see they decliend so much amazes me.

 

Cheers.



#68 xu2308

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 06:09 PM

Holden need to go back to a Torana Size, that fits 4 Cyl, V6 and V8, Problem fixed in size issue, they should of kept the Rana, way back when



#69 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 06:25 PM

I disagree. The commy was a good seller, as was the gemini, basically what they went to.

 

But the problem is they have stuck with that mentality, I fully agree with going back, but i dont agree that the shouldnt have went foward. 

 

Cheers. 



#70 _LXSS350_

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 06:28 PM

Hell if they bring back the A9X Hatch except with modern running gear, suspension, brakes etc and I will have to personally donate to the bailout. That would mean spare parts - got to love that dream. :driving:

 

A9X for a 2014 Bathurst win anyone.


Edited by LXSS350, 08 December 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#71 S pack

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:23 PM

Noticed recently that Holden are selling out the remaining stock of Opel's.

Looks like Opel have packed up their bat n ball and gone home.



#72 Dr Terry

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 08:28 PM

Again, it has nothing to do with size, Holden still make the Cruze & Toyota still make the Camry & Aurion. But obviously nobody is listening to that.

 

Another idea that might be worth thinking about would be the apply tariffs the same way they are applied to us. This idea is pretty 'level'.

 

Germany charge us say 30% tariff if we want to sell them a car, so we should then apply that same tariff to all German cars coming in to Aust. I believe that France charge 45% so we should apply 45% to all French cars coming in. We are totally forbidden from selling a single car into Japan, so good, stop the import of all Japenese cars & so on. Get my drift ? That might get some action & save a few jobs.

 

All I want is for the Aussie car industry, not just Commodore, not just Camry, but the whole industry, to be treated equally with the imports. Instead we say, "look those Koreans make better shopping trolleys than we do, so let's put 50,000 to 60,000 Aussies on the dole & support the Korean Government & their motor industry". We don't really need secondary industry in Australia anyway, do we ?

 

Dr Terry



#73 TerrA LX

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 08:38 PM

Germany charge us say 30% tariff if we want to sell them a car, so we should then apply that same tariff to all German cars coming in to Aust. I believe that France charge 45% so we should apply 45% to all French cars coming in. We are totally forbidden from selling a single car into Japan, so good, stop the import of all Japenese cars & so on. Get my drift ? That might get some action & save a few jobs.

Spot on, doesn't take Einstein to work out half the problem...

#74 Dr Terry

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 08:45 PM

I really wonder if wages are such a big issue?

 

I would like to see a breakdown of every single car produced, and what the wages payed to workers equate to the cost.

 

I have a feeling its very small, definitelly less than $1000 a car. 

 

Fixing the import tarrifs would solve this issue. 

 

Everyone belts on about wages, but theres no data showing how they fit in. I recon the Carbon tax was a bigger blow, and the heavily uneven trading scheme is the headshot.

 

Cheers.

High wages are just one issue. Remember it's not just the hourly rate, they also have to cop holiday pay, sick pay, long service leave, maternity leave, superannuation, severance pay, the highest in the world bar none, when they are all combined.

 

I recently read an article about how GM-H were negotiating with their local council(s) in an to attempt to reduce their local council rates. Apparently the Holden factory building extends across the boundary line of 2 local council areas (it didn't back when it was built) & they are  charged rather exorbitant rates by both of those councils with the combined figure in the millions of $$. Throw in carbon tax & about dozen or so other levies & taxes from all 3 levels of government you can see why closing down & moving off-shore looks very attractive at this time, without some assistance.

 

Assistance of some kind is needed if we wish to retain these skills in Australia, otherwise they will be lost forever. 

 

I know all about this first hand, I closed down my workshop last year after 37 years in business, many businesses (small or large) are simply not viable in the current climate. 

 

Dr Terry



#75 eyepeeler

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 08:53 PM

Say Opel in Germany wanted to import the Holden Cruze to re-badge under the Opel brand, as they can do under the GM banner, will it attract the 30% German tariff?

 

If Australia did re-introduce a tariff system to protect the local market, would imported cars sold under the Holden banner attract a tariff?

Would the proceeds tariff be given as a subsidy to the purchase of a car and not the manufacture of a car, ie the revenue is used for the purchaser and not given to the manufacturer to do what he sees fit?

 

In principle a tariff would help but it would mean stuff all if Holden did not hold up their end of the bargain as in what LXSS350 has been going on about.






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