Hey all, well i want to put a GRA Twin Carb straight gas system on my LH so im just wondering what other peoples experiances have been with similar systems?
And if anyone has any engine bay shots of a V8 with a gas setup?
I want the setup to be as neat as possible.. is it possible to hide some of the components under the gaurds or somewhere?
but yea mainly after pics of the setup..
oh also what is actually in a gas setup?
Gas tank
Gas Fuel lines? (can these be fitted myself or do u need a ticket or something?)
Gas Carbi
Ive heard of a converter or something? whats this..
n what else is needed?
Cheers
Staight Gas Setups in Torana's
Started by
_Viper_
, Aug 14 2006 08:46 PM
58 replies to this topic
#2
Heath
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 09:03 PM
A converter (evaporator) is typically a grey plastic cylindrical setup that sits in the engine bay and must be firmly secured in a horizontal position.
In all the setups I have seen, one converter per mixer.
My advice is install the system yourself but don't connect it up unless you know exactly what you're doing, then take it to them to connect & certify the setup, maybe get them to dyno tune it at the same time if that's an option. Then you're right for rego etc
Here's my favourite Twin GRA TB setup:
As you can see, the two converters are mounted just behind the mixers, and they must be mounted flat, as per photo, which can be a pain in the arse but the benefits of LPG outweigh the sacrifices.
In all the setups I have seen, one converter per mixer.
My advice is install the system yourself but don't connect it up unless you know exactly what you're doing, then take it to them to connect & certify the setup, maybe get them to dyno tune it at the same time if that's an option. Then you're right for rego etc
Here's my favourite Twin GRA TB setup:
As you can see, the two converters are mounted just behind the mixers, and they must be mounted flat, as per photo, which can be a pain in the arse but the benefits of LPG outweigh the sacrifices.
Edited by Heath, 14 August 2006 - 09:11 PM.
#3
FastEHHolden
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 09:18 PM
You cant touch the high pressure side..you will kill yourself..its that simple.
And with this $2000 the govt is chipping in you will have to get it certified.
You are not meant to mount the tank but some places don't mind...check first with the people who will certify, You can mount the converter and the mixer and the low pressure lines from the converter to the mixer, and you can run the water pipes to the converter.
And with this $2000 the govt is chipping in you will have to get it certified.
You are not meant to mount the tank but some places don't mind...check first with the people who will certify, You can mount the converter and the mixer and the low pressure lines from the converter to the mixer, and you can run the water pipes to the converter.
#4
_Viper_
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 09:48 PM
Do the carbies just bolt up to a normal 4 barrel square bore manifold or a spread bore? or either... Do gas systems have the equivilent of a fuel pump? or do they just use the pressure in the system?
#5
Heath
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:17 PM
I believe they simply use the pressure in the system which is the beauty of it. If they have some kind of alternative device then it definately isn't powered by the motor like a manual fuel pump anyway.
AFAIK it will be fine on any manifold, but new holes may need to be drilled & tapped which is a simple task anyway.
I think there are some manifolds designed to suit the characteristiscs/dynamics of LPG better (longer intake runners are highly beneficial in gas applications for example) than others, and that may be worth considering if you haven't already bought a manifold for the V8 you're building.
AFAIK it will be fine on any manifold, but new holes may need to be drilled & tapped which is a simple task anyway.
I think there are some manifolds designed to suit the characteristiscs/dynamics of LPG better (longer intake runners are highly beneficial in gas applications for example) than others, and that may be worth considering if you haven't already bought a manifold for the V8 you're building.
Edited by Heath, 14 August 2006 - 10:19 PM.
#6
_[BOTTLEDUP]_
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:45 PM
Check out Aidan's setup in his UC sometime, its probably one of the better thought out layouts I've seen. Any reasons why you want to run the twin GRA's over an Impco or similar? Only personal perferance I know but I'm not a fan of the twin side draught on V8 look.
Another option to consider would be EFI LPG. Contact RAGE RACING (or come and ask me) or have a look in the latest PSC mag.
Another option to consider would be EFI LPG. Contact RAGE RACING (or come and ask me) or have a look in the latest PSC mag.
#7
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Posted 15 August 2006 - 02:14 PM
GRA is just another gas company, they dont mean they are any better. You can get just good as preformance out of a impco system (which is neater). Give me a ring and I'll do the run down on it for, easier over the phone and you can come have a look at my setup if you want to. Send me a PM and i'll give you my number.
Few answers - Impco carbs use a holley square bore base plate, come is different CFM ratings (mine is 425, but its pretty much a standard 308, making 195HP at the rear wheels and I haven't had the dizzy recurved for gas) They bolt straight. However they are a rather tall carby and besides the fact gas apparantly works better with a single plane manifold I needed it for bonnet clearance issues.
The setup Heath posted is very nice but wouldn't cost you 3grand thats for sure. Also the condensers can be mounted vertical, IF they are mounted as close to the firewall as possible and mounted with so the thin sides face the front and rear of the vechile. This is meant to help drain oil off the diaphram which is inevitable as gas contains a slight amount of oil (from the bowser). Has to be mounted the way I said if mounted vertical so when you brake and accellerate the forces wont interfer with the diaphram function in the condenser, but however you will get a slight inteferance from turning. Best to mount flat and change your diaphram rubber when the oil damages it too much (years).
Few answers - Impco carbs use a holley square bore base plate, come is different CFM ratings (mine is 425, but its pretty much a standard 308, making 195HP at the rear wheels and I haven't had the dizzy recurved for gas) They bolt straight. However they are a rather tall carby and besides the fact gas apparantly works better with a single plane manifold I needed it for bonnet clearance issues.
The setup Heath posted is very nice but wouldn't cost you 3grand thats for sure. Also the condensers can be mounted vertical, IF they are mounted as close to the firewall as possible and mounted with so the thin sides face the front and rear of the vechile. This is meant to help drain oil off the diaphram which is inevitable as gas contains a slight amount of oil (from the bowser). Has to be mounted the way I said if mounted vertical so when you brake and accellerate the forces wont interfer with the diaphram function in the condenser, but however you will get a slight inteferance from turning. Best to mount flat and change your diaphram rubber when the oil damages it too much (years).
#8
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Posted 15 August 2006 - 02:36 PM
~200-250psi in the tank is plenty of fuel pressure!I believe they simply use the pressure in the system which is the beauty of it. If they have some kind of alternative device then it definately isn't powered by the motor like a manual fuel pump anyway.
The convertor, or evaporator can be thought of as the fuel pump to the system though. It must supply heat to provide the energy needed to evaporate the lpg, if these arent big enough or defective the fuel flow will stop. Unlike the petrol pump it doesnt require energy from the motor to run, just using the waste heat from the engine via the water jacket.
#9
Heath
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Posted 15 August 2006 - 02:45 PM
Interesting points there guys, thanks for the information.
Woah that's some pretty serious pressue. I knew it was there but I thought it woulda been 50-100psi, shiet!
I haven't looked into the arrangement at the tank in great detail, but is that pressure let free into the LPG line running toward the front of the car as well?
I can understand how that could create some serious danger. Better remember where I mount the jack so I don't pop a high pressue line and see a plume of LPG spray out into the atmosphere from the back of my car
Woah that's some pretty serious pressue. I knew it was there but I thought it woulda been 50-100psi, shiet!
I haven't looked into the arrangement at the tank in great detail, but is that pressure let free into the LPG line running toward the front of the car as well?
I can understand how that could create some serious danger. Better remember where I mount the jack so I don't pop a high pressue line and see a plume of LPG spray out into the atmosphere from the back of my car
Edited by Heath, 15 August 2006 - 02:46 PM.
#10
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Posted 15 August 2006 - 03:04 PM
its always interesting when a condensor stops working. One summer when I was younger and more niave I hadn't checked my coolant in a few weeks.. going down a road I start to get fuel surge, couldn't work it out my fuel guage was 1/2.. pulled into a servo a few minutes down the road and filled up, wouldn't start.. puzzled I lifted the bonnet to see my condensor had actually frozen solid it was literally an ice block.. Put in some coolant in the radiator and waited for it to melt, started up fine. I fitted an overflow bottle after that.
#11
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Posted 15 August 2006 - 05:09 PM
that setup in that hq is exactly what i had in mind for when the chev goes in - glad its been done before, and i have a pic to look at (maybe even photoshop)
cheers
dave
cheers
dave
#12
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Posted 15 August 2006 - 06:48 PM
Sure is!I haven't looked into the arrangement at the tank in great detail, but is that pressure let free into the LPG line running toward the front of the car as well?
The pressures inside the tank can vary greatly though depending on state of fill, water content of fuel and temperature. 200psi would be typical at temps of 40C with the container at 80% capacity, be about 100psi at 18C, the relief valves are typically set at 300psi.
Ps Aidan.....its an evaporator or convertor.....not a condensor.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 15 August 2006 - 07:01 PM.
#13
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Posted 15 August 2006 - 07:05 PM
thanks for that clarification
Edited by Aidan, 15 August 2006 - 07:05 PM.
#14
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:50 AM
LOL 200PSi fuel pressure, there is no relevance in this reply but International Trucks have there injection pressures up around the 50,000PSi, now thats atomisation.
I just came from GRA in hoppers Crossing, for there Twin gas carb, twin converter setup with 86 litre tank in the boot, all new lines, lock off solenoids, dynoed and tuned he quoted me $3300.
With the Govt grant, that makes it $1300 to me and if its as good setup as the impco and gets same result i was willing to give it a go,
My heads will be fine and get freshend up regularly with the rebuild.
Cheers
JNR_ATE
I just came from GRA in hoppers Crossing, for there Twin gas carb, twin converter setup with 86 litre tank in the boot, all new lines, lock off solenoids, dynoed and tuned he quoted me $3300.
With the Govt grant, that makes it $1300 to me and if its as good setup as the impco and gets same result i was willing to give it a go,
My heads will be fine and get freshend up regularly with the rebuild.
Cheers
JNR_ATE
#15
TerrA LX
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 02:01 AM
$1300 sounds great, if you compare it to say buying a new holley with electric fuel pump and some hoses etc you would not get much change from $1300.
#16
Heath
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 09:22 AM
Agreed. Sounds good to me
#17
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 01:19 PM
another of the 2000 reasons this new grant is a bad idea. Surely its there to make motoring cheaper for those that are struggling.......not there to finance the average hoon (apologies if jnrate isnt a hoon) so they can drive a v8 around more often and cheaply and cause more damage to the environment and annoyance to the public.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 16 August 2006 - 01:21 PM.
#18
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 02:58 PM
Don't totally understand and therefore agree with your post devils ^^^? The grant is for a few reasons, to make motoring cheaper full stop and also to help with the environment as LPG has much better emissions that petrol. The gov is doing far to little to encourage research and movement into cleaner fuels and we going to get caught out in the end because of it when emission standards become even stricter and the wells dry up.
Running a v8 is expensive and some of us do struggle to do it and can't afford the v8 we would like to have. Going to LPG therefore makes it more achievable for some of us - doesn't that fit the 'make motoring cheaper for those that are struggling' line?
$1300 certainly sounds a lot better than the $3300 I was looking at to install LPG 12 months ago.
Cheers,
Running a v8 is expensive and some of us do struggle to do it and can't afford the v8 we would like to have. Going to LPG therefore makes it more achievable for some of us - doesn't that fit the 'make motoring cheaper for those that are struggling' line?
$1300 certainly sounds a lot better than the $3300 I was looking at to install LPG 12 months ago.
Cheers,
#19
Heath
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:37 PM
I don't know if I entirely disagree with the grant idea, but I believe that Devilsadvocate made a very valid point just there. I know that the majority of people here will disagree with this...
A V8 on Strait gas is not a bad idea (even for a weekender I would run gas probably), but it shouldn't be an excuse or a right for someone with a wild 308 to burn one of the most precious substances on earth right now as much as they want.
Just like I hate the idea of someone driving a CV8 into the city every day just because they can afford it... I don't believe that's right. I may have somewhat misinterpretted what devilsadvocate was getting at, but that's my opinion anyway.
A V8 on Strait gas is not a bad idea (even for a weekender I would run gas probably), but it shouldn't be an excuse or a right for someone with a wild 308 to burn one of the most precious substances on earth right now as much as they want.
Just like I hate the idea of someone driving a CV8 into the city every day just because they can afford it... I don't believe that's right. I may have somewhat misinterpretted what devilsadvocate was getting at, but that's my opinion anyway.
#20
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:40 PM
hey devil....
get off your f***ing high horse and give everyone a break!
LPG is so much better for the environment than the emissions produced by PULP. and as for referring to people as hoons....does this make you exempt from ANY criticism due to the car you drive? and does that make every man and women on this forum with a Torana/V8 combo a hoon? Ive got a 6 in mine..... does that make me exempt?
Think before you speak.....
P.S I also dont agree with 2000 bonus from the government, but i absolutely disagree with your post...
Cheers,
SXCLX
get off your f***ing high horse and give everyone a break!
LPG is so much better for the environment than the emissions produced by PULP. and as for referring to people as hoons....does this make you exempt from ANY criticism due to the car you drive? and does that make every man and women on this forum with a Torana/V8 combo a hoon? Ive got a 6 in mine..... does that make me exempt?
Think before you speak.....
P.S I also dont agree with 2000 bonus from the government, but i absolutely disagree with your post...
Cheers,
SXCLX
#21
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:42 PM
oh, and another thing.....
im a 1st year apprentice, saving for a home deposit while also enjoying my Torana, and keeping my daily driver going.......... i dont think im struggling.... so why does this grant help me? when both my cars are on gas already....
anyway, going out to do a burn out and make some smoke for the environment.
isnt that what hoons do?
Cheers
SXCLX
im a 1st year apprentice, saving for a home deposit while also enjoying my Torana, and keeping my daily driver going.......... i dont think im struggling.... so why does this grant help me? when both my cars are on gas already....
anyway, going out to do a burn out and make some smoke for the environment.
isnt that what hoons do?
Cheers
SXCLX
#22
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:55 PM
ok seems like ive created a heated argument, IMHO i agree with the scheme, will mean more cars are running on LPG which is alot better for the environment and means I will be able to enjoy my Torana alot more without having to worry as much about fuel costs...
Having a cheaper source of fuel is in no way going to promote hooning? People will be hoons no matter what car they drive if they want to be, petrol or not... Ive also got a 1.8L gemini that uses fk all juice but that has no bearing on the way i drive..
oh yea dave, only said GRA cos thats really the only brand i knew of, dont kno much about gas systems at all... and i thought LPG Injections was still very experimental?
but hopefully we can get back on topic... is there any other pics of GAS installs? doesnt even have to be in a Torana..
Having a cheaper source of fuel is in no way going to promote hooning? People will be hoons no matter what car they drive if they want to be, petrol or not... Ive also got a 1.8L gemini that uses fk all juice but that has no bearing on the way i drive..
oh yea dave, only said GRA cos thats really the only brand i knew of, dont kno much about gas systems at all... and i thought LPG Injections was still very experimental?
but hopefully we can get back on topic... is there any other pics of GAS installs? doesnt even have to be in a Torana..
#23
Heath
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 07:03 PM
Haven't Falcons been running LPG Injection systems for a while now? I thought it was more that aftermarket versions were still very experimental.and i thought LPG Injections was still very experimental?
I do have a fair few pics... just don't have the energy right now.
#24
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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:49 PM
SXCLX: Don�t take it so personally. I�m amazed that little fuss has been made about this so far in the media, the whole issue has simply not been thought through properly��.especially the racket that the LPG installers have got going with their inflated prices at the moment, conning the government about the cost of a basic conversion.
It would be my thoughts that everyone on this site that has a v8 torrie got one because they wanted one, and was prepared to pay for the privilege of this(there are cheaper alternatives)(petrol has never been cheap in this country and v8s have always been considered expensive on fuel), anyone with a good argument that a v8 is needed for basic transportation speak up! It sickens me that the government has now thrown $2000 of mine and everyone else�s money at anyone owning such a vehicle to now run it on cheaper fuel. Making it cheaper to run encourages more use, please don�t drivel on otherwise��that is a fact.
Sure LPG has far less toxic emissions, and produces less global warming carbon dioxide per kJ, about 20% less. However, this will easily be offset by the overall increase in consumption of lpg over what the owner would have used if the car was still on petrol fuel used due to the price diff.
The fuel parity pricing of fuel was basically the only environmental policy our present government has ever had, it encouraged people to switch to smaller cars and use less overall fuel��..but as we all know it was only maintained because of revenue��now they fear that the public will vote them out and come up with this environmental disaster. As a colleague of mine said today, the government will give me $2000 to convert a $200 car to lpg, but wont give me a cent to buy a bicycle(which currently are taxed very heavily) which causes absolutely no pollution at all.
It would be my thoughts that everyone on this site that has a v8 torrie got one because they wanted one, and was prepared to pay for the privilege of this(there are cheaper alternatives)(petrol has never been cheap in this country and v8s have always been considered expensive on fuel), anyone with a good argument that a v8 is needed for basic transportation speak up! It sickens me that the government has now thrown $2000 of mine and everyone else�s money at anyone owning such a vehicle to now run it on cheaper fuel. Making it cheaper to run encourages more use, please don�t drivel on otherwise��that is a fact.
Sure LPG has far less toxic emissions, and produces less global warming carbon dioxide per kJ, about 20% less. However, this will easily be offset by the overall increase in consumption of lpg over what the owner would have used if the car was still on petrol fuel used due to the price diff.
The fuel parity pricing of fuel was basically the only environmental policy our present government has ever had, it encouraged people to switch to smaller cars and use less overall fuel��..but as we all know it was only maintained because of revenue��now they fear that the public will vote them out and come up with this environmental disaster. As a colleague of mine said today, the government will give me $2000 to convert a $200 car to lpg, but wont give me a cent to buy a bicycle(which currently are taxed very heavily) which causes absolutely no pollution at all.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 16 August 2006 - 08:52 PM.
#25
Peter UC
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Posted 18 August 2006 - 01:08 PM
Very valid argument, the same can be said about public transport, why don't they subsidise that.
But back on topic, there is an LH on here with the gas research carbies mounted vertically, Heath do you have a picture and it sticks up through the bonnet, just for something different.
But back on topic, there is an LH on here with the gas research carbies mounted vertically, Heath do you have a picture and it sticks up through the bonnet, just for something different.
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