Thanks for your tips Eddie, how many clear coats are you looking at doing 4?
Garry
Spray Gun
Started by
_SLR5000_
, Dec 19 2005 06:54 PM
52 replies to this topic
#27
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 23 December 2005 - 06:17 PM
Eddie, I do it the other way around. Heavy bottom (colour coats), light/thin top coats with shitloads of thinners. Have been suggested that last coat can nearly be 100% thinners to flatten the orange peel down. Haven't tried that yet, that's next on the experiment list!!!
#28
_Pete_
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Posted 24 December 2005 - 12:37 PM
Yella, your method of laying heavy coats down first is the ideal way to go about painting metallic basecoats so the metallics lay down flat then finish with "dusting" coat to get the metallic even before clear.
If i'm painting Acrylic solid colours I start with a tack coat first which is normally fairly thin, then i hit it full coats of colour. I rub down my acrylics every 2-3 coats with 1500 and usually do this twice then finish off with a couple of coats of clear then rub that down again with 1500 then finallly 2-3 more coats of clear mixed with 10% retarder thinners so it drying time is lengthened and the gloss can flow out nicely. This procedure normally ends up with a finish that a lot of people won't bother to buff, but it doesnt hurt to rub it with 2000-2500 and then compound it.
Here's a ricey hyundai excel bonnet i did for a guy
Note: this is a digital photo of a pic taken with a conventional camera so excuse the fuzziness
(cant get a scanner to work)
this finish is off the gun painted at home in my backyard shed in Lacquer
If i'm painting Acrylic solid colours I start with a tack coat first which is normally fairly thin, then i hit it full coats of colour. I rub down my acrylics every 2-3 coats with 1500 and usually do this twice then finish off with a couple of coats of clear then rub that down again with 1500 then finallly 2-3 more coats of clear mixed with 10% retarder thinners so it drying time is lengthened and the gloss can flow out nicely. This procedure normally ends up with a finish that a lot of people won't bother to buff, but it doesnt hurt to rub it with 2000-2500 and then compound it.
Here's a ricey hyundai excel bonnet i did for a guy
Note: this is a digital photo of a pic taken with a conventional camera so excuse the fuzziness
(cant get a scanner to work)this finish is off the gun painted at home in my backyard shed in Lacquer
#29
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 25 December 2005 - 12:10 AM
Thanks for that Pete, I'll give that a go. Mmmm, I like shiny things, that bonnet looks ace, even if it is rice.
Yeah, forgot about the tack coat, I usually do that. Is the "dusting" coat like a tack coat, i.e. light, or is it heavily thinned? Also do you do a tack coat with metallics?
My first LH was a metallic Persian Sands LH. Looked good close up, but from a distance you could tell that every single panel must a been repaired at one point or another, as each panel a different look from a distance (Then again, I could have been an overly fussy youngster back then as well!!!). Never been interested much in metalics since that car.
One thing I forgot to mention with acrylics, thinners are your friend, you can never have enough thinners!!! Well you probably can, but at the same time, don't be too economical with them.
Yeah, forgot about the tack coat, I usually do that. Is the "dusting" coat like a tack coat, i.e. light, or is it heavily thinned? Also do you do a tack coat with metallics?
My first LH was a metallic Persian Sands LH. Looked good close up, but from a distance you could tell that every single panel must a been repaired at one point or another, as each panel a different look from a distance (Then again, I could have been an overly fussy youngster back then as well!!!). Never been interested much in metalics since that car.
One thing I forgot to mention with acrylics, thinners are your friend, you can never have enough thinners!!! Well you probably can, but at the same time, don't be too economical with them.
#30
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 25 December 2005 - 10:18 PM
iwata. any gun from them is a good thing. not cheep, but you get what you pay for.
#31
_gstar_
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 09:55 PM
how much could you expect to pay for a pro to finish your car? i mean you do the bare metal, etch prime and undercoat?
is acrylic undercoat/grey stuff, ok for 2 pac to go over the top of?
is acrylic undercoat/grey stuff, ok for 2 pac to go over the top of?
#32
_Herne_
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 10:18 PM
A common answer to that is "if I (the pro) do your car it's 6K if you help it's 9k"
In short many pro's find the work done by keen individuals not up to their standard. Good luck tho, I am not trying to discourage you keep asking around.
Cheers
Herne
In short many pro's find the work done by keen individuals not up to their standard. Good luck tho, I am not trying to discourage you keep asking around.
Cheers
Herne
#33
_JBird_
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 10:27 PM
If you do that, youd have very sore arms lol. Remember getting a pro to do it is about time. to get a perfect finish you need a perfect undercoat, i.e sanding ALOT!. If you want a good compromise between getting a pro to do it and doing some yourself to save some cash i reckon the best way is to:how much could you expect to pay for a pro to finish your car? i mean you do the bare metal, etch prime and undercoat?
is acrylic undercoat/grey stuff, ok for 2 pac to go over the top of?
1. sand down the old paint and fix up rust etc. then send it to the paint shop.
2. take your car back after its primed, guide coat it with some cheapy spray paint in a can, sand it to all hell until its dead straight.
3. send it back and get them to do the rest.
keep in mind you car gets taken to pieces so maybe you can get it towed there and back 70bucks tops. take the car apart and put it back together as well.
all up should cost up to 5 grand at the most.
p.s acrylic undercoat = acrylic topcoat, NEVER 2pak NEVER
good rule of thumb, like mixes with like
James
#34
_Pete_
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 10:30 PM
Most "Pros" wont paint a car prepared by someone else, particularly someone they dont know (or know their capability). If you do find someone to do it be prepared for the "it will only look as good as YOU'VE got it" story which is completely understandable.
If your after a 2 pack finish on your car, its not good enough to use Acrylic Primer underneath 2K, Most 2K primer is relatively cheap as quality Acrylic so there is no excuse not to use it. You will always end up with "Sink back" issues when using Acryilic Primers especially under sealed 2 pack finishes so i cant stress enough to go with 2pack all the way.
If you do find a Pro willing to paint your car i'd guess it would cost you around the $500-1500 dollar range provided all they had to do was walk in and paint it. You might also want to factor in cost of Booth Hire etc also.
Best bet might be to speak to a shop locally and see if they're even willing to take the job on. Honestly only way stuff gets done these days is if your really good friends with a painter so always be nice to them (even when they're pricks
)
Failing all that theres always plenty of guys on internet forums who paint their own cars and would be willing to pass on a few tips etc should you want to take it on yourself.
If your after a 2 pack finish on your car, its not good enough to use Acrylic Primer underneath 2K, Most 2K primer is relatively cheap as quality Acrylic so there is no excuse not to use it. You will always end up with "Sink back" issues when using Acryilic Primers especially under sealed 2 pack finishes so i cant stress enough to go with 2pack all the way.
If you do find a Pro willing to paint your car i'd guess it would cost you around the $500-1500 dollar range provided all they had to do was walk in and paint it. You might also want to factor in cost of Booth Hire etc also.
Best bet might be to speak to a shop locally and see if they're even willing to take the job on. Honestly only way stuff gets done these days is if your really good friends with a painter so always be nice to them (even when they're pricks
)Failing all that theres always plenty of guys on internet forums who paint their own cars and would be willing to pass on a few tips etc should you want to take it on yourself.
#35
_JBird_
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 10:48 PM
or pros looking for extra cash on the weekend, i know a guy in queensland on the gemini forums who does acrylic for 900+, 2pac for 2000+. Backyard jobs but his customers are always happy withe the finish
regards
james
regards
james
#36
_Pete_
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Posted 30 December 2005 - 10:53 PM
The Price of $500-1500 was for a Pro to walk in on a saturday and shoot it.......not including the paint, booth hire etc.
Trouble is nowadays Pro painters earn so much money they're not interested in spending a day off that they should be spending with their family painting a poorly prepared old "shitbox" (their terms)
The Painters in our shop both grossed over $100K each last year, when your on that kind of money there isnt much need to be doing foreigners on your days off.
Trouble is nowadays Pro painters earn so much money they're not interested in spending a day off that they should be spending with their family painting a poorly prepared old "shitbox" (their terms)
The Painters in our shop both grossed over $100K each last year, when your on that kind of money there isnt much need to be doing foreigners on your days off.
#37
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:06 AM
i'm not a pro but i don't like the idea of spraying a car that i didn't prep....if the preps not quiet up to scratch the job wont' be. then word will get around that i sprayed that car and people will thing i'm dodge....
#38
_mike_nofx_
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Posted 02 January 2006 - 03:44 PM
So pro painters make 100k a year?? Is that a painter only, or a panel beater/painter. Or do they also air brush??
I always thought it was a low paid job.
I always thought it was a low paid job.
#39
_Pete_
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Posted 02 January 2006 - 04:36 PM
Thats a Contract painter, doing smash work only (no custom/airbrush etc), this year the way they're travelling i'd predict they'll make $120/k+
Of course they're very good at what they do, they dont stuff around and make next to no mistakes. They also probably do the work of 4 wages painters.
The shortage of good quality tradesman in the present times mean wages go upwards. I know of panelbeaters and painters earning much better money than your average engineer and accountants which seems strange but at the end of the day you dont want a $15000 and upwards new car repaired by someone on $300 a week.
Of course they're very good at what they do, they dont stuff around and make next to no mistakes. They also probably do the work of 4 wages painters.
The shortage of good quality tradesman in the present times mean wages go upwards. I know of panelbeaters and painters earning much better money than your average engineer and accountants which seems strange but at the end of the day you dont want a $15000 and upwards new car repaired by someone on $300 a week.
#40
ToRunYa
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Posted 03 January 2006 - 10:45 AM
its really hard to get a decent painter these days, especially when 99% of cars on the showroom floor are just orange peel, unfortunatly thats what ya get at panelbeaters now, bloody annoying!
#41
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:10 AM
Think most painters these days are allergic to this thing called "Sandpaper".
#42
_Pete_
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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:07 PM
Think most painters these days are allergic to this thing called "Sandpaper".
This and also bending their backs...........
especially when 99% of cars on the showroom floor are just orange peel,
This and also "Mottle" and complete lack of any coverage, Look at a Silver commodore or anything cheaper, Toyotas have gotten ridiculous when it comes to colours being anything close to what the machine spits out and actually having any paint on them at all, And the biggest offender would have to be a light metallic BA falcon particularly base model stuff....look at the side and see where their painting robots decided you only need have the amount of paint to go on (must have had a big one the night before:P) and also how mottled and disgusting they look, In a couple of years time they're gonna all look like Hyundai excels in the way of paint.
#43
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:59 PM
nice to see i'm not the only one who thinks i could do better than the finish on new cars with supercheep gun and paint...blind folded lol.
#44
_Eddie_
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 08:15 PM
Yeah I've just noticed that too. You see new cars in the average price range with a kinda 'rippling' across the paint when seen from up close, particularly noticeable in black coloured cars. Then you go walk up close to a new sports/luxury car, like a BMW or Porshe and the paint is beautiful. I guess the family/affordable cars are just, "...get them built, slap the paint on, ship 'em outta the factory." type thing.
Question for Pete: Can you provide a little more information about using retarders? My coats are drying too fast. What premium thinners does your shop use for top coat acrylics?
I rub down my acrylics every 2-3 coats with 1500 and usually do this twice then finish off with a couple of coats of clear then rub that down again with 1500 then finallly 2-3 more coats of clear mixed with 10% retarder thinners so it drying time is lengthened and the gloss can flow out nicely.
Question for Pete: Can you provide a little more information about using retarders? My coats are drying too fast. What premium thinners does your shop use for top coat acrylics?
#45
_Pete_
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 09:59 PM
Question for Pete: Can you provide a little more information about using retarders? My coats are drying too fast. What premium thinners does your shop use for top coat acrylics?
The shop i work for doesnt even have a full acrylic tinter system nowadays, Most smash shops use 2 pack only, Acrylic is a great user friendly product for the home builder but there is no benefit in it to not use 2pack in a professional shop in this day and age.
You can buy Retarder Thinners from almost all specialist Automotive paint suppliers and it usually costs around $45-60 for 4 litres, this may sound a lot compared to the $14.99 Supercheap Premium thinners but you dont need too much of it.
I prefer to use Spartan Acrylics as well as Spartan or Wattyl Acrylic thinners, as i've found these to provide the best off the gun finish for acrylics.
With Retarder thinners it slows the drying time of the paint so it has a chance to flow out nicely and evenly, You'll notice particularly on a hot day in Queensland your paint is basically dry by the time it hits the panel when your using a cheap brand of thinners. To combat this is a mix of technique and product.
When your mixing your final batch of paint and thinners go for the usual 1 part paint to 1.5 part thinners and also add another 10% retarder thinners into it and stir well. The first time you see how retarder thinners can allow you to paint a panel van roof and have it so smooth wet and even you will wonder how you ever got by without retarder thinners.
BUT RETARDER THINNERS IS NOT WITHOUT ITS PERILS........
If the substrate your painting over is not up to scratch the increased drying time also means more "BITE" which has the chance of biting in and causing your paint to fry up and or sink back (bit like spraying lacquer over enamels). Eliminating this is by way of perfect preparation (ie. Bare metal, good quality primer prep etc)
and also not going overboard with the retarder thinners.
With Retarders don't fall into the trap of "If a little is good, a lot is better" (that only works with engines
)Have fun and be prepared to spend a lot of time getting your acrylic looking good, Acrylic has a beautiful lustre that is very appealing when done nicely.
#46
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 10:47 PM
So much stuff to try. Yella runs out and buys some retarder.
#47
turbotrana
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 12:16 AM
I've painted with acrylics in the past but now want to try 2 pac but am worried about the dangerous stuff in 2 pac.
My paint shop have these special mask kits that they say can be used with 2 pac. Anyone used these.
Any pointers when painting with 2 pac. Like what size tip to use for primer and top coat.
My paint shop have these special mask kits that they say can be used with 2 pac. Anyone used these.
Any pointers when painting with 2 pac. Like what size tip to use for primer and top coat.
#48
_Eddie_
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 12:44 AM
That's great information Pete, thanks so very much for your advice! I've been wondering how to combat this heat, this 30+ degree weather ( I live in Brissie too) and it sounds like retardarnt is what I've been looking for.
My painting is in the final stages now. Most body straightening is completed, the car has been sanded, guide coated, sanded, guide coated, sanded.. gui... you get the idea... but on top of all this I have learnt the hard and long way about a few things.
The shell I have has been a nightmare to work on. Really, I shouldn't even have begun restoring this shell. Although the rust has been minimal, with no major bad spots, the car is filled with bog, and also about a million coats of paint, and for some god forsaken reason, some cheeky basturd decided to give the whole car a dodgy back yard black enamel paint job.
I have taken about 50% of the car back to bare metal such as the bonnet, engine bay, front doors, roof. But the rest of the car was too overwhelming for an amateur like me to take back, with out proper tools. Anyway the lesson is learnt.
Where I am going with all this is my second question: The panels that still have enamel reziding under layers and now even some areas exposed on the surface (due to sanding), what's the best way to isolate, this black plague of death?
I noticed the previous painters (one after the enamel job) just used a red isolator, possibly a Motospray product. I was recommended to use Protec's etch primer which I've found hasn't been that crash hot. What do you recommend going about it?
For the record, I am using: Protec etch primer, Protec surfacer, Debeer primer filler (the dutch stuff), Ronstins Dura-lac 2000 custom top coats from MPA refinishing, and Johns Paint shed top clear cloats.
I have been using Supercheap premium thinners on advice from paint suppliers but if an extra 30-40 bucks will get me a better gloss and finish, then I definitely will get it.
My painting is in the final stages now. Most body straightening is completed, the car has been sanded, guide coated, sanded, guide coated, sanded.. gui... you get the idea... but on top of all this I have learnt the hard and long way about a few things.
The shell I have has been a nightmare to work on. Really, I shouldn't even have begun restoring this shell. Although the rust has been minimal, with no major bad spots, the car is filled with bog, and also about a million coats of paint, and for some god forsaken reason, some cheeky basturd decided to give the whole car a dodgy back yard black enamel paint job.
I have taken about 50% of the car back to bare metal such as the bonnet, engine bay, front doors, roof. But the rest of the car was too overwhelming for an amateur like me to take back, with out proper tools. Anyway the lesson is learnt.
Where I am going with all this is my second question: The panels that still have enamel reziding under layers and now even some areas exposed on the surface (due to sanding), what's the best way to isolate, this black plague of death?
I noticed the previous painters (one after the enamel job) just used a red isolator, possibly a Motospray product. I was recommended to use Protec's etch primer which I've found hasn't been that crash hot. What do you recommend going about it?
For the record, I am using: Protec etch primer, Protec surfacer, Debeer primer filler (the dutch stuff), Ronstins Dura-lac 2000 custom top coats from MPA refinishing, and Johns Paint shed top clear cloats.
I have been using Supercheap premium thinners on advice from paint suppliers but if an extra 30-40 bucks will get me a better gloss and finish, then I definitely will get it.
#49
_Pete_
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 07:08 AM
The panels that still have enamel reziding under layers and now even some areas exposed on the surface (due to sanding), what's the best way to isolate, this black plague of death?
I'd be inclined to sand all the enamel completely off the car, old enamel is horrible to try and paint over in any case but if you use retarder thinners as well it will only compound the problem. Either way its going to involve more work, now or after you've painted and its fried up. If the enamel area is only small i'd try and block sand it out, if it covers majority of the panel i'd bare metal the entire panel, re-do the repairs and re-prime. Its a lot of work but thats the gist of it.
You can use another isolator which isnt a bad idea anyway but i'd bet the enamel will still cause issues, In my opinion i think its better to spend the time fixing it before painting rather than wasting money putting on expensive paint only have to take it all back off. It will also drive you to tears
I've never used Protec products so i cant give you an accurate opinion on them, I've used the Debeer acrylic paint Duralac which i didnt mind, i thought it was a reasonable product. I've never used Johns Paint Shed stuff either.
I only ever use Supercheap thinners as gunwash, it might do the job fine but i prefer Spartan or Wattyl both of which are available from Colourfast Auto & Industrial Supplies (07) 3800 8877, they are in Hillcrest.
Any pointers when painting with 2 pac. Like what size tip to use for primer and top coat.
For 2pack primer/putty a 2.0mm tip is the go, for 2pack topcoats a 1.4mm tip is the most used.
For a mask you'll need one with at least a charcoal filter and paper filters you can buy a Sundstrom one in a kit that has the necessary gear for around $100-150 from Paint suppliers.
#50
_Eddie_
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 01:26 PM
Thanks for the tip Pete, would you be inclined to use the retardant on the last colour coat as well as the last clear coat? How long does it delay the drying time?
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