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Overheating Problem -Blocked Cooling System

Started by _73LJWhiteSL_ , Nov 21 2006 05:01 PM

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133 replies to this topic

#26 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 10:46 PM

Steve, what was the result of the drop test....how long the coolant takes to fall out of the motor and rad when you disconnect the bottom hose?
Steve, changing to a lower value thermostat will not cure your problem, unless of course your current thermostat is cactus. Do you have any reason to suspect your current one is defective, apart from running too hot. Have you accurately measure the temps of top and bottom hoses? this will tell you more about where your problem may lie.

Edited by devilsadvocate, 01 December 2006 - 10:49 PM.

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#27 rodomo

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 06:26 AM

Don't think the flush has helped much. I might try the thermostate.

Steve

If it has had a big o/heat I would change the thermostat anyway. They are known to leak wax if overheated. If this occurs they dont open properly from then on.

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#28 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 08:34 AM

Steve, what was the result of the drop test....how long the coolant takes to fall out of the motor and rad when you disconnect the bottom hose?
Steve, changing to a lower value thermostat will not cure your problem, unless of course your current thermostat is cactus. Do you have any reason to suspect your current one is defective, apart from running too hot. Have you accurately measure the temps of top and bottom hoses? this will tell you more about where your problem may lie.

From memory it only took a minute or 2 for all the fluid to drain out of the bottom hose of the radiator.

I have overheated the car in the past and have been told by others that this can damage thermostates and I am running straight gas which am also told does cause the engine to run hotter.

How would you suggest i measure the tempreture of the top and bottom hoses?

Steve

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#29 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 06:34 PM

Steve, dont know about your minute or 2 draining, 95% of the water should fall out in less than 5 seconds.
Measuring temp: you need some device.
Ideally, an IR temp measurer, measure the temp of anything quickly......if you dont want to buy one or cant borrow one, most radiator shops ought to have them.
Thermistor type probe thermometers may work well enough if you tape them to a hose.
Thermocouple taped to hose, or put inside hose........calibrated gauges that are part of multimeters can be purchased for about $50. Or if you just buy the wire you can use any $10 mulitimeter, but youll need to calibrate it yourself and be aware of the exact ambient temp.
If both top and bottom hoses feel real hot when its in overheat range, then possibly thats a sign coolant circ is okay and you can concentrate on other causes.
You are running just the straight 4 blade?

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#30 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 12:16 AM

All i will say is most of the water came out quickly, so i don't think there is a problem.

Might have to get my hands on one of them IR things. Dads work may have access to one of them. I do have a multimetre so maybe just buying the wire thing might be the way to go.

I have grabbed the heater hoses and top hose of the radiator and found them to be pretty much the same tempreture when it gets really hot, never thought to grab the bottom one as well. I will give that a go as well. Its not a great method I guess, but you can tell hot from bloody hot with your hands. :fool:

Yes i am just running the stock 4 blade fan.

Maybe I am looking at a airflow problem? I do have extractors, and I understand they generate a lot of heat which may push the underbonnet tempreture up. Also the GRA carb has a small pod filter on it, that is about the level of the top hose on the radiator... could hot air going into the intake also send the engine tempretures up?

Heres a pic of my engine bay atm.

Posted Image

Steve

Edited by 73LJWhiteSL, 03 December 2006 - 12:18 AM.

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#31 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 04:11 AM

Yes, certainly do the grab test when its very hot, if the difference is obvious to your hands there is a prob(there should be a noticeable difference when the thermostat is not fully opened.......which should be most of the time)
The intake behind the rad, its not going to reallly effect engine temp.......just efficieny, though Im surprised the installer didnt go to the trouble of doing better. Most gra setups ive seen, or done by gra themselves have cold air intakes. Yours look most easily modified by extending the intake to where the battery is and relocating the battery.
I dont think the extra stuff you have is really going to be the cause of an airflow prob, thats not to say that more airflow isnt going to be of advantage. Do you have enough clearance with the rad to be able to fit a clutch fan in there........you can get one of them cheaply off ebay or at a wrecker, fit it in 5mins and see if that does you any good.
Ive noticed that on one of my ucs it ran slightly hotter on gas, yet on the other no real difference could be observed as the engine sits on thermostat opening temp in all conditions, doesnt mean to say the gas doesnt create more heat, just the rad/fan combo was still good enough to get rid of it so it maintained temp.........if I had done bottom hose temps on it b4 the conversion I would be able to tell. My point, however, is that perhaps a small increase in temp may be observed with lpg, but going from a motor that should sit at 85-90C in all conditions to 110+ would indicate that perhaps there are other causes.

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#32 Tiny

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 07:11 AM

I;'d have to agree with DA, Grab yoruself a clutch and ( i think they're 7 bladed??) Commdore metal fan. I had a new radiator with the same ammount of cores but high quality core put into my overheating 202 torry, along with a brand new thermostat, and the clutch fan and it was the best thing i ever did! Never broke half on the guage from then on!

THe commodore fan is a great investment as is a thorough flush and re-core if th radiator is old. I know i got mates rates for it, but the whole job cost me $400 on my old torry!

Cheers

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#33 rodomo

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 08:10 AM

I;'d have to agree with DA, Grab yoruself a clutch and ( i think they're 7 bladed??) Commdore metal fan. I had a new radiator with the same ammount of cores but high quality core put into my overheating 202 torry, along with a brand new thermostat, and the clutch fan and it was the best thing i ever did! Never broke half on the guage from then on!

THe commodore fan is a great investment as is a thorough flush and re-core if th radiator is old. I know i got mates rates for it, but the whole job cost me $400 on my old torry!

Cheers

Do you mean the viscous coupling fan? If so they run a bigger bearing in the water pump.

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#34 Tiny

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 10:30 AM

Umm the clutch that was put onto my car i guess was a viscous coupling... It had the heat-spring in the front tha locked teh blades in and out as needed.

Is that the viscous coupling? ( i know the spring isnt.. but the clutch itself??)

I had just installed a brand new water pump, so i didnt notice any problems in that direction although the car didnt travel tonnes of kays after that.. I probably did another 30,000Kms before i sold it.. and never had a problem!

Cheers!

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#35 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 11:27 AM

So what car do i grab the clutch fan off? Would i get one off say a VB-VK Commodore?

The radiator was recored back in 2003, they told me it was the orginal radiator that had been repair once or twice. Not bad lifetime out of a radiator huh?

This pictures a little dark, but it shows the space between the radiator and front of the block

Posted Image

Do you reckon i would get a clutch fan in there?

Steve

Edited by 73LJWhiteSL, 03 December 2006 - 11:30 AM.

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#36 Tiny

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 12:23 PM

Steve: My setup was identical to yours, ( stock!!) and ti fit no problem. I dont recall any hassles whatsoever.

The radiator guy bought the clutch, and i had to scour the wreckers for the metal fan!

Cheers!

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#37 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 02:39 PM

Pictured is a standard Holden 7blade thermatic viscous clutch fan. 45cm diameter. I believe its the same diameter as the 4 bladed fixed fan. It will bolt straight on and will clear all the stuff on a red motor.
The clutch fan is 7.4cm deep, you need >7.4cm between pulley and radiator core. The clutch is the foremost part and the blades sit about 1.5cm back, so you can have a slight overhang with your toptank.
Dont know how close it gets in an LJ. Someone else on the forum claimed that it wouldnt fit.
You cant really go any larger than this on a LX,UC or the bonnet wouldnt close!
Suggest that the clutch fan may be a cheaper and more friendly option than the flexfan.
See if you can pick one up from a wrecker, I would pay $30-$40max, with some sort of warranty on the clutch. Its impossible to tell if the clutch is any good until its spun fast on a car, particularly if the clutch has been stored horizontally. If the fan roars up when it is first started, chances are its good. There are other checks beyond that to check its working perfectly. There was only one ever type of viscous clutch fan fitted to holden 6's and 8s, the fan blades are as pictured until the 80s when blades with square edges appeared, they will fit too, wont fit on a fact air torry though, theyll hit the compressor.

Do you mean the viscous coupling fan? If so they run a bigger bearing in the water pump.

No they dont, there is only one water pump for red sixes, they all use the same bearing and will survive with the fan clutch. Water pumps for blue?/black motors were different and may have bigger bearings.....I dont know, its a moot point anyway the blue pump wont go with the red motor.

Edited by devilsadvocate, 03 December 2006 - 02:41 PM.

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#38 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 03:09 PM

I just measured the distance from the radiator to the front of the pulley, and i got 7.8cm, so it looks like it might be very tight.

Would just sticking the 7 blade fan (without clutch) instead of my 4 blade fan increase the air flow?

I guess another option i have is electric fans behind the radiator and no engine mounted fan.

Steve

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#39 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 03:37 PM

No, you just cant run the fan, its designed to fit to the clutch centre, not to the water pump flange. Max speed of the 7 blade fan is also limited to ~3000rpm by the the clutch action, so its unlikely the fan was designed with any more rpm in mind than that either.
There are six blade fixed fans that look similar that were fitted to some holdens, they will fit. Ask at a wreckers.
The above was only suggested as its quick, cheap and easy to do. Before jumping on the electric fan train, Id be doing more basic tests....you havent stated whether your problem is just at idle or at a particular speed?

Edited by devilsadvocate, 03 December 2006 - 03:39 PM.

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#40 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 05:00 PM

On a hot day the car when idling just keeps getting hotter and hotter usualy averaging around 210 - 220F. When driving on the same day the gauge sits around 190F or maybe 180F if i don't have to stop or slow down.

On a cooler day, the gauge usualy sits around 180F while idling and when moving can drop down around 170 - 160F.

It does seem to move down a little when you go from sitting idling to moving, and it goes up again when you have been stoped for a minute or two.

Dunno if thats really helpful.

Steve

Edited by 73LJWhiteSL, 03 December 2006 - 05:01 PM.

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#41 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 05:25 PM

It does indicate that at idle you have a problem!
It could still be inadequate coolant flow, airflow, heat exchange at rad or combo of all three. Would want to get some temp readings at bottom and top of rad at idle and cruise to know for sure.........or you can just start replacing everything with same or better. Id also be trying cruise without the engine fan on a hot day with a tail wind b4 going electric fans.

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#42 rodomo

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 06:04 PM

[
Do you mean the viscous coupling fan? If so they run a bigger bearing in the water pump.
No they dont, there is only one water pump for red sixes, they all use the same bearing and will survive with the fan clutch. Water pumps for blue?/black motors were different and may have bigger bearings.....I dont know, its a moot point anyway the blue pump wont go with the red motor.

I mentioned this as Tiny had used "Commodore" as his reference and only one out of four Commodores had a red 6.
Why won't a blue water pump work on a red?
I looked up "moot" in the dictionary and believe you may have used incorrect terminology regarding my post. Although I will agree there are some that make "moot" posts.
I also looked up "clutch" and the dictionary says to sieze and hold tighly. Viscous couplings don't do that.

Edited by rodomo, 03 December 2006 - 06:15 PM.

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#43 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 06:55 PM

Rodomo, you sure have an axe to grind. You�ve given misleading advice to 73ljwhitesl, telling him the �viscous coupling fan� runs a bigger bearing, surely implying he would have to install a bigger bearing or pump�..or what indeed was the point of you post? Im sure you were aware that the motor in question was a red six?
Not sure why the blue pump is incompatible, it may be just pulley alignment and/or that they extend further form the block making the fan sit further forward making it an impossible install in an LJ.
English lessons for the Devil, well no one is perfect but don�t believe I have erred on this occasion. Perhaps this definition of moot: "a discussion of a hypothetical case as an academic exercise", or, "having no practical significance" is indeed relevant and in context with what I said,

Water pumps for blue?/black motors were different and may have bigger bearings.....I dont know, its a moot point anyway the blue pump wont go with the red motor.

Meaning that whether the blue bearing is bigger could be a good discussion but of little significance as the blue pump won�t go on the red six.

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#44 _73LJWhiteSL_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 09:52 PM

Its ok, i know the differences between the red and blue/black water pumps on Holden 6s, been down the road a while ago. From what i understand the blue/black 6 water pump has a longer shaft making the fan sit further out which would mean the belt wouldn't alin.

Steve

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#45 rodomo

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 10:36 PM

Cheers Steve and good luck solving it. If you want to pop over one night I'll have a look if you like. P.M. me if your interested, I'll see if I can borrow a T.K. tester to eliminate head gasket/cracked head.

Devils I was only pointing out the difference between a viscous coupling and a clutch fan as I often read you posts and have learned that you are particular with terminology "why do we persist in calling them "thermo". Electric fan is more appropriate..........my rant for the day"

I do take a little umbrage at the way you believe you can tell people what they can and cannot post on a public forum when as far as I know you are not a moderator. As I said earlier I often read your posts without comment but had difficulty swallowing this post:

"Dont understand why you posted ^ Bodallafella, it appears to be understood and agreed upon by everyone who was contributed to this thread?"

Surely this is a "moot" post?

My rant for the day.

I have to go and grind my axe.

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#46 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 10:57 PM

Really ^, rather than just accept you have posted something that was misleading and move on, you have to take out a personal attack on myself.
Clutch fan, or viscous coupling HUB or centre, or viscous clutch fan is fine.
Oxford English dictionary: clutch: �arrangement for connecting or disconnecting working parts of a machine� there is no stipulation on the medium required to do this.
Be careful while sharpening that axe, don�t drop it on your toes��.again.

Edited by devilsadvocate, 03 December 2006 - 11:11 PM.

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#47 rodomo

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 11:18 PM

I don't see my last post as an "attack".
I see it as an offering of realisation to yourself.
"Or viscous clutch fan is fine"
Selective terminology Devils I'm afraid.
My dictionary says "to sieze and hold tightly" (and it is an oxford that offers your description under a different meaning) viscous fans don't do that.

Edited by rodomo, 03 December 2006 - 11:30 PM.

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#48 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 03 December 2006 - 11:27 PM

My dictionary says "to sieze and hold tightly" viscous fans don't do that.

For goodness sake you are clutching at straws: is that all it says, and if it says "sieze" then throw it away!

Edited by devilsadvocate, 03 December 2006 - 11:27 PM.

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#49 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 02:05 AM

This pictures a little dark, but it shows the space between the radiator and front of the block

http://www.users.on....un/DSCN2024.JPG

Do you reckon i would get a clutch fan in there?

Steve

It does not look like there is enough space for the Commodore fan.

My brother had a 6 cyl HJ wagon with aftermarket aircond. The radiator fan was a 6 or 7 blade nylon fan that bolted directly to the water pump. It looked like it came from a 4wd. You could try asking aircond installers what fans are available.

These fans may be worth looking at.
http://www.vpw.com.a...0&PrdGrpID=2668

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#50 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 04 December 2006 - 04:57 AM

Steve, LC2250 had cooling issues which were discussed a while ago. I dont remember what he ended up doing, maybe give him a pm. I did send him an ebay listing of either a 6 or 7blade fixed fan for a holden........pic may still be there if he has kept the pm......I didnt. A fixed aggressive fan will move a lot of air, though they will be noisy at higher rpm(can be heard over a red 6)