Howdy,
I need a bit of hand diagnosing a problem I had today.
308, Trimatic, nine inch.
Last time I drove was Australia Day and I did not have any problems. I was however playing around with the B&M Mega Shifter and giving the car more revs than usual. Since then the car has been parked and I havnt touched anything.
Today I took it out for a run. I got about 2 k's down the road and I lost power. No coughs or splutters but there was bit of surge, then nothing. I pulled over and the car stalled in Drive. Temp was reading around 140 degrees.
I waited for five minutes, gave it a kick and it started so I dropped a u-turn and headed home. Got about 1km and it did the same thing. Waited once again for 5 minutes, started it up and away I went.
Went past my street intending to do a small blocky to see if the problem happened again and sure enough it did. Once again I waited and then kicked it over, took off home and parked it.
When I got home I checked all the vacuum hoses which seem fine. I checked the fuel filter (glass type) and it seemed ok. I checked the spot where I park it for oil leaks and there are none. I checked the transmission fluid which read ok and I checked the oil which seemed a bit low, actually, quite low. When I checked the oil the car had been sitting for about an hour.
I didnt detect any bad knocking noises when the car was running. Once cooled a bit the engine started and ran fine, it just seemed to shit itself after about 2 minutes of driving and then came good after a five minute break.
Not having much mechanical knowledge I can only assume that the problem is fluid related. I gather that the 5 minute break the car got allowed fluid to cool, or run back to where it was needed so I could start and drive again. Am I on the right track? And if so, am I right to assume that the oil needs replacing (or at least topping up). Is the above a sign of low oil preassure? Or could it be the transmission fluid?
The only other thing I think of is fuel vapourising in the fuel line somewhere but it has never been a problem before..... basically I am stumped.
Anyway, I will do an oil change next weekend and see how I go. Any other suggestions?
Cheers,
T
308 Loss of power, no idle, wait 5 minutes and OK again?
Started by
_Big T_
, Feb 22 2009 11:35 PM
106 replies to this topic
#2
rodomo
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Posted 22 February 2009 - 11:53 PM
What carby?
What ignition?
What ignition?
#3
_Big T_
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:02 AM
Edelbrock Performer (525cfm) carby.
Electronic Dissy, Crane Fireball spark amplifier.
Cheers,
T
Electronic Dissy, Crane Fireball spark amplifier.
Cheers,
T
#4
rodomo
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:15 AM
Next time it stops, jump out, get Mrs to crank it and check for spark.
If spark is there, it must be fuel.
Is it Holden dissy?
If spark is there, it must be fuel.
Is it Holden dissy?
#5
_Big T_
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:26 AM
Thanks Rob.
Dissy is an Accel.
Spark might be an issue. I didnt bolt the clamps down onto the battery terminals as well I as I usually do. I figured if it starts, it is getting spark and that should be good enough.
Fuel could also be the issue. When it started to lose power the first time it felt like a car usually does when it has run out of fuel. Fuel guage is showing half a tank though?
To test for spark I just remove a spark lead, hold it close to block and turn it over hey?
Dissy is an Accel.
Spark might be an issue. I didnt bolt the clamps down onto the battery terminals as well I as I usually do. I figured if it starts, it is getting spark and that should be good enough.
Fuel could also be the issue. When it started to lose power the first time it felt like a car usually does when it has run out of fuel. Fuel guage is showing half a tank though?
To test for spark I just remove a spark lead, hold it close to block and turn it over hey?
#6
rodomo
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:33 AM
To test for spark I just remove a spark lead, hold it close to block and turn it over hey?
Yes, and wait for 20k voltage to run up your arm and zap your brain.
Tighten your battery leads to.
When it stops, will it still crank?
Edited by rodomo, 23 February 2009 - 12:35 AM.
#7
_Big T_
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:48 AM
Yes, and wait for 20k voltage to run up your arm and zap your brain.
Seriously? How should I test for spark without getting zapped? I hate electricity !!!
Sort of cranked but wouldnt fire. Like the battery is dead or dying. It did this on the last power outage and I thought I had flattened the battery. I ran home, got another battery and jumper leads, hopped in the ever so reliable Toyota and drove back to the Torry. Jumped in the Torry and gave a kick just for the hell of it and the stupid thing started.
I have been having an issue with the battery for ages. Have to turn the key five times before I get it to crank. It will crank once more but if it doesnt start I get nothing but "clicks" for the next five tries and then it turns over and fires into life. I think it is time for a more powerful battery as it seems to be ok for a week or so after the battery is fully charged (on a slow charger).
#8
GML-31
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 01:06 AM
is it a mechanical or electric fuel pump tony?
#9
Posted 23 February 2009 - 05:58 AM
What are the specs on your ignition stuff in regards to voltage required? I wonder if your battery problems mean its not getting enough to light the fire when struggling to turn over a hot engine?
#10
Rockoz
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:23 AM
Go through this systematically.
Start it up on driveway and see if problem occurs when standing still.
Lots easier if its still at home.
Take it for a drive as last resort.
When it stops.
1. Get out take air cleaner off and move throttle linkages and see if little boy squirts.
2. Check your fuel filter. If it is full it usually means it is blocked.
That rules out basic fuel problems.
Have a screwdriver with you that is long and thin and not insulated. Do not use one that has the metal going all the way through the handle.
Remove a lead and insert screwdriver inside cap and move screwdriver shaft close to an earthed spot.
Keeping the rest of your body clear of the cars metal get someone to wind it over. This will check your spark and stop you from being zapped.
If it wont wind over, throw another battery in it or jump it.
Start it up on driveway and see if problem occurs when standing still.
Lots easier if its still at home.
Take it for a drive as last resort.
When it stops.
1. Get out take air cleaner off and move throttle linkages and see if little boy squirts.
2. Check your fuel filter. If it is full it usually means it is blocked.
That rules out basic fuel problems.
Have a screwdriver with you that is long and thin and not insulated. Do not use one that has the metal going all the way through the handle.
Remove a lead and insert screwdriver inside cap and move screwdriver shaft close to an earthed spot.
Keeping the rest of your body clear of the cars metal get someone to wind it over. This will check your spark and stop you from being zapped.
If it wont wind over, throw another battery in it or jump it.
#11
_clinto_
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:35 AM
Gday mate
It might be the coil overheating and failing. If you get no spark at the plugs check the coil lead.
Cheers,
Clint
It might be the coil overheating and failing. If you get no spark at the plugs check the coil lead.
Cheers,
Clint
#12
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:45 AM
electronic dissies can do this also, had it happen on a VR SS
#13
_Big T_
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 09:53 AM
Alright, so from I am reading the problem seems to be more electrical than mechanical (well, in the sense that engine or tranny are not stuffing up). I can handle that, phew !!
My gut feeling is that the battery is only just doing its job and once it looses a bit of charge it is causing dramas. This is definately evident on start up although I didnt know about the hot engine/weak battery problem, thanks 76LXhatch.
Clinto - The coil I am using is a bosch 717 MEC (or similar) that I have had laying around for years. I just tried it to see if it worked and it has been ok thus far. Looks like I need to get something that is suited to my system, not just a "she'll be right" job.
I will go thru the process as suggested RockOZ. I checked the fuel filter after it conked out and it looked empty but I didnt play with the carby as suggested.
Kev - fuel pump is mechanical - standard 308.
My gut feeling is that the battery is only just doing its job and once it looses a bit of charge it is causing dramas. This is definately evident on start up although I didnt know about the hot engine/weak battery problem, thanks 76LXhatch.
Clinto - The coil I am using is a bosch 717 MEC (or similar) that I have had laying around for years. I just tried it to see if it worked and it has been ok thus far. Looks like I need to get something that is suited to my system, not just a "she'll be right" job.
I will go thru the process as suggested RockOZ. I checked the fuel filter after it conked out and it looked empty but I didnt play with the carby as suggested.
Kev - fuel pump is mechanical - standard 308.
#14
_chrome yella_
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:13 AM
only change one thing at a time, then test drive it. otherwise you will be lost and chasing the problem for ages. i would try the coil first, also check all earth connections.
#15
TerrA LX
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:42 AM
If the alternator is charging then you can rule out the battery (altho it does sound like it is on its last legs) and if you stop next time and pull the airfilter off and see fuel squirt down the carby then it is not fuel.
As above, I would be looking at the dizzy, namely the switching mech and secondly the coil.
so with the checks above, Alt and fuel, I would change the coil and rule that out next.
As above, I would be looking at the dizzy, namely the switching mech and secondly the coil.
so with the checks above, Alt and fuel, I would change the coil and rule that out next.
#16
Evan
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 01:49 PM
End make sure you get a good spark. When my coil burnt out it still was sparking , but not a good enough spark.
Evan.
Evan.
#17
Posted 23 February 2009 - 02:21 PM
Not really because the alt won't do much while cranking; if it fires then it will keep things running but the battery has to get it all startedIf the alternator is charging then you can rule out the battery
#18
FastEHHolden
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 02:28 PM
I reckon its the lifters gone spongy from lack of oil..top it up and see if that solves it.
#19
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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:55 PM
one thing is you said you have to turn the key often sometimes to start it, the power to the ignition system runs through the ignition lock.
they dont always make good contact after so many years. be just like turning the ignition off, then the old battery wont crank it straight away.
something to think about if all the other ideas dont fix it.
they dont always make good contact after so many years. be just like turning the ignition off, then the old battery wont crank it straight away.
something to think about if all the other ideas dont fix it.
#20
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Posted 24 February 2009 - 10:47 AM
^ Yeah, Ive thought about that as well but each time I turn the key I can here the starter "click" so I am assuming (maybe wrongly) that power is getting through but just not enough to make things happen. I might have to dig up that old post about the ignition barrel clean up and give it a go. Looks like Im gonna be busy this weekend !!
#21
Rockoz
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Posted 24 February 2009 - 11:20 AM
Could be a number of things.
Because you say the starter clicks, could be either dud battery, or crook starter, or loose connection on starter.
Based on that here is what I would do.
Clean battery terminals and earth connections.
Pull off all connections on starter, clean and put back on. Check the fusible link while you are there.
Start car and see what happens. Have another car and jumper leads ready.
If car stops, try starting with own battery. If that fails try jump starting. If that works replace battery.
You may need to replace starter too.
Car stopping sounds like a low voltage problem.
Starter clicking can be either low voltage or stuffed solenoid.
A good way to check whether its your sarter is to short out the big terminals on the end of the solenoid with a big screwdriver or spanner.
If it cranks doing that when it only clicked off the key, then the solenoid has run out of smoke and needs replacing.
Because you say the starter clicks, could be either dud battery, or crook starter, or loose connection on starter.
Based on that here is what I would do.
Clean battery terminals and earth connections.
Pull off all connections on starter, clean and put back on. Check the fusible link while you are there.
Start car and see what happens. Have another car and jumper leads ready.
If car stops, try starting with own battery. If that fails try jump starting. If that works replace battery.
You may need to replace starter too.
Car stopping sounds like a low voltage problem.
Starter clicking can be either low voltage or stuffed solenoid.
A good way to check whether its your sarter is to short out the big terminals on the end of the solenoid with a big screwdriver or spanner.
If it cranks doing that when it only clicked off the key, then the solenoid has run out of smoke and needs replacing.
#22
TerrA LX
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Posted 24 February 2009 - 12:28 PM
Not really because the alt won't do much while cranking; if it fires then it will keep things running but the battery has to get it all started
OP's question is asking about a stalling car, not starting one.
#24
_Big T_
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Posted 02 March 2009 - 10:52 AM
Bit of update:
As the oil was low and I dont know how old it is I decided to change it on the weekend and replaced the oil filter as well. Also charged the battery overnight.
Started the car and it cranked first time and for several attempts after that. It did the "click click" again after several (at least 6) cranks so I figure it needs a battery with a higher CCA. The current battery is a no name and seems ok on full charge. Once it has been used a few times it seems to lose a bit of cranking power. Anyway, neither the oil change or the fully charged battery solved the problem.
The engine will idle fine with the bonnet up. I had it idling for about ten minutes before I put it into drive and took off down the road (with the bonnet down of course). It then died in the arse after about 100 metres. As usual I let it cool and got it going again.
I kept on eye on the fuel filter (glass type) while it was idling and I noticed that after a little while it started to bubble and the fuel delivery did not look constant. It still kept the engine running though. The filter was hot to the touch as it sits above the rocker cover.
It seems that the fuel system is ok though. When cranking there is definately fuel getting through to the carb and although the car stalls I reckon it is the engine failing due to lack of spark which then means no fuel is being pumped.
The problem seems to occur when the engine is under load. It can idle fine for a while but once it is driven it starts to die.
After a bit more research I reckon the issue is with the Crane XR700 and the Bosch MEC 707 coil. Apparently the coil has internal ballast but crane recommend using one of their oil filled coil (PS20 or PS40) with an external ballast which they supply and has the correct resistance ratings. At the moment I am not running any external ballast. The instructions with the XR700 state that if the unit gets hot it needs to have external ballast connected. My unit is very hot to touch which I dont think is normal.
On one of the website I was looking at a bloke was saying the standard spark amplier in his Jag or Damlier was buggered and it exibited the same symptoms as what I am having. Although I havnt found out what actually does happen when the Crane unit gets hot I would assume that the heat somehow stuffs up the spark amplification or timing and this is why the car dies under load. Although I am sketchy on the details I understand that timing changes or differs when a car is under load as oppsed to idling (similar to pinging maybe).
Anyway, I am going to get a crane coil that is recommended for use with the XR700 and see how that goes.
As the oil was low and I dont know how old it is I decided to change it on the weekend and replaced the oil filter as well. Also charged the battery overnight.
Started the car and it cranked first time and for several attempts after that. It did the "click click" again after several (at least 6) cranks so I figure it needs a battery with a higher CCA. The current battery is a no name and seems ok on full charge. Once it has been used a few times it seems to lose a bit of cranking power. Anyway, neither the oil change or the fully charged battery solved the problem.
The engine will idle fine with the bonnet up. I had it idling for about ten minutes before I put it into drive and took off down the road (with the bonnet down of course). It then died in the arse after about 100 metres. As usual I let it cool and got it going again.
I kept on eye on the fuel filter (glass type) while it was idling and I noticed that after a little while it started to bubble and the fuel delivery did not look constant. It still kept the engine running though. The filter was hot to the touch as it sits above the rocker cover.
It seems that the fuel system is ok though. When cranking there is definately fuel getting through to the carb and although the car stalls I reckon it is the engine failing due to lack of spark which then means no fuel is being pumped.
The problem seems to occur when the engine is under load. It can idle fine for a while but once it is driven it starts to die.
After a bit more research I reckon the issue is with the Crane XR700 and the Bosch MEC 707 coil. Apparently the coil has internal ballast but crane recommend using one of their oil filled coil (PS20 or PS40) with an external ballast which they supply and has the correct resistance ratings. At the moment I am not running any external ballast. The instructions with the XR700 state that if the unit gets hot it needs to have external ballast connected. My unit is very hot to touch which I dont think is normal.
On one of the website I was looking at a bloke was saying the standard spark amplier in his Jag or Damlier was buggered and it exibited the same symptoms as what I am having. Although I havnt found out what actually does happen when the Crane unit gets hot I would assume that the heat somehow stuffs up the spark amplification or timing and this is why the car dies under load. Although I am sketchy on the details I understand that timing changes or differs when a car is under load as oppsed to idling (similar to pinging maybe).
Anyway, I am going to get a crane coil that is recommended for use with the XR700 and see how that goes.
#25
_Lostit_
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Posted 02 March 2009 - 12:51 PM
Im not sure if you answered when its dies will it crank over still?
You said you were playing with the bm shifter you dont have a kill switch linked to it? IS the neutral switch connected to the micro switches?
Just wondering as you said it was all fine tll you played with something , personally i would look back into that first before opening more cans of worms
You said you were playing with the bm shifter you dont have a kill switch linked to it? IS the neutral switch connected to the micro switches?
Just wondering as you said it was all fine tll you played with something , personally i would look back into that first before opening more cans of worms
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