^ Yep, still cranks over after it dies but it wont fire up.
Kill switch hey? Hmmm, didnt think of that. As far as I know it doesnt have one but then again, I didnt build the car and the previous owner didnt mention anything about it. The only thing I was doing with the B&M was engaging it so that I could change gears manually as you do with Megashifter.
308 Loss of power, no idle, wait 5 minutes and OK again?
Started by
_Big T_
, Feb 22 2009 11:35 PM
106 replies to this topic
#27
grina05
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Posted 02 March 2009 - 05:03 PM
had are simaler prblem at are hillclimb many years ago
wrapped are cold wet rag around fuel filter just before each run, got through the day
just are thought. steve
wrapped are cold wet rag around fuel filter just before each run, got through the day
just are thought. steve
#28
_Big T_
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:30 PM
Update - Got a cheapo fuel filter and hooked it up to replace the glass one. No change.
Idled the car for about 15mins with no dramas. Put it into drive and took off down the street, it died after 100 metres. Leave it for 10 minutes, crank it over and it fires. Idle again for a minute or two, back into drive, dies in the arse 100 metres down the road. Leave it for 5 minutes, crank it over and it fires but dies.
If I leave it for ten minutes before cranking it will fire and idle but still dies under load after the same distance no matter if putt along or give it kick in the guts. Got it home, gave it 10 minutes to cool, cranked it over it fires and idles with no worries. Left it idle for another 10 minutes with no worries.
What what cause a car to idle fine but die under load with such consistency? Vacuum leak, electronic ignition system, timing, something buggered in the carby? Leaving the car for a period of tem minutes is obvioulsy letting something settle or cool but I cant work out what. Stupid car......
Idled the car for about 15mins with no dramas. Put it into drive and took off down the street, it died after 100 metres. Leave it for 10 minutes, crank it over and it fires. Idle again for a minute or two, back into drive, dies in the arse 100 metres down the road. Leave it for 5 minutes, crank it over and it fires but dies.
If I leave it for ten minutes before cranking it will fire and idle but still dies under load after the same distance no matter if putt along or give it kick in the guts. Got it home, gave it 10 minutes to cool, cranked it over it fires and idles with no worries. Left it idle for another 10 minutes with no worries.
What what cause a car to idle fine but die under load with such consistency? Vacuum leak, electronic ignition system, timing, something buggered in the carby? Leaving the car for a period of tem minutes is obvioulsy letting something settle or cool but I cant work out what. Stupid car......
Edited by Big T, 08 March 2009 - 08:34 PM.
#29
_SLR Goat_
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:48 PM
Sounds like a coil problem
Edited by SLR Goat, 08 March 2009 - 08:50 PM.
#30
rodomo
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:52 PM
Might be time for somebuddy to go and look at this? 
Hint:
It's either running out of spark
OR
It's running out of fuel
Hope this helps.
Hint:
It's either running out of spark
OR
It's running out of fuel
Hope this helps.
#31
_SLR Goat_
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:56 PM
If u get stuck Big T i may be able to swing over next weekend sometime and offer some assistance if someone closer isnt able to
cheers dennis
cheers dennis
Edited by SLR Goat, 08 March 2009 - 08:57 PM.
#32
_Big T_
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 08:58 PM
Edit didnt work....
Here is what I added:
Edit - Just re-read previous suggestions.
I still havnt tried to see if I am getting spark immediately after the engine dies using the methods suggested. Mainly because I am testing by myself and the missus is often looking after our son when I am stuffing around with the car. From what I can gather though, there doesnt seem to be spark. Generally to start I pump the accelerator twice, turn the key and the engine turns over and pumps fuel to the carby but it wont fire. I then give it a couple of seconds, pump the accelerator twice agian turn the key and the engine turns over and fires. It has alweays been this way even before the electronic dissy was put in. If I try this method straight after the engine has died I have no success at all. The engine will turn over fine but will not fire until I have left it for a about 5-10 minutes.
Fuel is squirting into the carby and I have replaced the fuel filter so I dont think the issue is fuel.
I havnt replaced the coil or battery yet. Based on the suggestions above my problem appears to be ignition but I dont know what part, coil, battery or dissy? I have an oil filled coil and ballast resirtor that I can try so I might see how that goes. I have also had an offer to help with the dissy as well so I will be exploring that option too.
Does a coil just die or can it still work and get a car to idle but shit itself under load?
/end edit
Rob, I have had an offer to give me a hand so I think it is time to accept the offer.
SLR Goat - I hope you are right. Ive had a gut feeling about that silly coil I have since the problem surfaced. I will give you hoi if I run into to trouble. Thanks for the offer mate.
Here is what I added:
Edit - Just re-read previous suggestions.
I still havnt tried to see if I am getting spark immediately after the engine dies using the methods suggested. Mainly because I am testing by myself and the missus is often looking after our son when I am stuffing around with the car. From what I can gather though, there doesnt seem to be spark. Generally to start I pump the accelerator twice, turn the key and the engine turns over and pumps fuel to the carby but it wont fire. I then give it a couple of seconds, pump the accelerator twice agian turn the key and the engine turns over and fires. It has alweays been this way even before the electronic dissy was put in. If I try this method straight after the engine has died I have no success at all. The engine will turn over fine but will not fire until I have left it for a about 5-10 minutes.
Fuel is squirting into the carby and I have replaced the fuel filter so I dont think the issue is fuel.
I havnt replaced the coil or battery yet. Based on the suggestions above my problem appears to be ignition but I dont know what part, coil, battery or dissy? I have an oil filled coil and ballast resirtor that I can try so I might see how that goes. I have also had an offer to help with the dissy as well so I will be exploring that option too.
Does a coil just die or can it still work and get a car to idle but shit itself under load?
/end edit
Rob, I have had an offer to give me a hand so I think it is time to accept the offer.
SLR Goat - I hope you are right. Ive had a gut feeling about that silly coil I have since the problem surfaced. I will give you hoi if I run into to trouble. Thanks for the offer mate.
Edited by Big T, 08 March 2009 - 09:00 PM.
#33
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:09 PM
A coil can shit itself under load after getting hot then it cools down works fine again till it gets hot again
Send me a pm if u need some help i wanna make sure u make it to the drag day ova my dead body is a 253 going to run quicker then a 308 lol
cheers dennis
Send me a pm if u need some help i wanna make sure u make it to the drag day ova my dead body is a 253 going to run quicker then a 308 lol
cheers dennis
#34
fuzzypumper
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 09:59 PM
I reckon coil, yes they can do exactly that, provide enough spark to start and but week and extinguish under high load.
What sort of coil did you say you had ? Bosch MEC 707 ? Never heard of it. What does that look like is it one of those epoxy filled units?
I have seen a BOMEC717 before but not 707.
BTW:Have you tried driving around without the air filter installed?
What sort of coil did you say you had ? Bosch MEC 707 ? Never heard of it. What does that look like is it one of those epoxy filled units?
I have seen a BOMEC717 before but not 707.
BTW:Have you tried driving around without the air filter installed?
Edited by fuzzypumper, 08 March 2009 - 10:02 PM.
#35
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 09 March 2009 - 06:49 AM
Are you using Ethanol blended fuel by any chance? Develops vapour locks in the old girls when they get hot. Ethanol is very volatile. I just use premium unleaded now. Any unleaded fuels are going to run hotter, due to lack of suitable flame inhibitors (lead), Ethanol blend runs hotter again. The loss of power is also highly irregular, but normally when you give it an absolute bootful with Ethanol blend.
So much for my green streak.
So much for my green streak.
#36
_Big T_
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 08:44 PM
^ Not using ethanol Pat. Just normal unleaded with a squirt of that stuff for older engines.
Got my new coil today, a Crane PS40 which is what crane recommend for the XR700 fireball. Hooked it all up and it fired into life no worries. Backed it out into the driveway and it was idling ok, bit rough but the engine was cold. Battery didnt sound to be cranking that well but that is sort of normal. Anyway the engine stalled beacuse I was farting around and not giving it enough revs while it was warming up. Tried to start again and it would fire briefly and then die before I had a change to give it revs. Did this a couple of times and ended up flattening the battery.
Checked around the engine bay had a closer look at the wire that runs from the alternator to the battery. I gave the wire a gentle tug where it connects to the alternator and it moved away from the terminal entirely. I was as if it was just sitting there. The connection was totally broken in half i.e what should have been a full circle was just a moon shaped crescent. I wired up a new connection and put it on the terminal but the battery was so flat it wouldnt crank. Seems like I have had no (or little) charge from the alternator to the battery. Hopefully this is the cause of the problems Ive been having. I guess I will know more tomorrow when I try with a fully charged battery.
Got my new coil today, a Crane PS40 which is what crane recommend for the XR700 fireball. Hooked it all up and it fired into life no worries. Backed it out into the driveway and it was idling ok, bit rough but the engine was cold. Battery didnt sound to be cranking that well but that is sort of normal. Anyway the engine stalled beacuse I was farting around and not giving it enough revs while it was warming up. Tried to start again and it would fire briefly and then die before I had a change to give it revs. Did this a couple of times and ended up flattening the battery.
Checked around the engine bay had a closer look at the wire that runs from the alternator to the battery. I gave the wire a gentle tug where it connects to the alternator and it moved away from the terminal entirely. I was as if it was just sitting there. The connection was totally broken in half i.e what should have been a full circle was just a moon shaped crescent. I wired up a new connection and put it on the terminal but the battery was so flat it wouldnt crank. Seems like I have had no (or little) charge from the alternator to the battery. Hopefully this is the cause of the problems Ive been having. I guess I will know more tomorrow when I try with a fully charged battery.
#37
rodomo
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 12:08 AM
#38
GML-31
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 01:08 AM
makes sense Tony as the battery voltage dropped due to no charge the current will increase causing excessive heat to coil especially if you still have the resistor wire from ignition
#39
_SLR Goat_
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Posted 17 March 2009 - 08:13 PM
Whats the latest update on this problem big T?
#40
_Big T_
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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:33 PM
Hmmmm how do I put this nicely...lets see, f*cking piece of shit useless sea hunt of poor f*cking excuse for a motor vehicle. Shit of thing should have been crushed straight after rolling of the production line. Apart from that it is going alright, the interior looks nice......
Found out that the Toranas had resistance wire as standard so I rewired to bypass the ballast resistor. Still no go. The mongrel cranks but refuses to fire now. I had a feel of the wires under the dash and noticed that they were really hot. I isolated the hot wire to the pink resistance wire, turned the ignition to the ON position and the wire heated up really quickly, so did the coil. I then decided to trace all my wiring so I took out the glove box to reveal the wiring and it looks like the last sparky to work on the car was Edward Scissorhands. Not a pretty sight. The pink resistance wire has about 4 joins in it before it makes it to the coil so I removed all the joins and ran it directly. Still no change. At that point I was sick of being bitten by mozzies, I was hungry, Wes was crying and I'd had a gutful.
I am calling in a sparky to suss it out and fix a couple of other things as well.
Might be racing on the 28th, might not. Dont really care either way at the moment.........
Found out that the Toranas had resistance wire as standard so I rewired to bypass the ballast resistor. Still no go. The mongrel cranks but refuses to fire now. I had a feel of the wires under the dash and noticed that they were really hot. I isolated the hot wire to the pink resistance wire, turned the ignition to the ON position and the wire heated up really quickly, so did the coil. I then decided to trace all my wiring so I took out the glove box to reveal the wiring and it looks like the last sparky to work on the car was Edward Scissorhands. Not a pretty sight. The pink resistance wire has about 4 joins in it before it makes it to the coil so I removed all the joins and ran it directly. Still no change. At that point I was sick of being bitten by mozzies, I was hungry, Wes was crying and I'd had a gutful.
I am calling in a sparky to suss it out and fix a couple of other things as well.
Might be racing on the 28th, might not. Dont really care either way at the moment.........
#41
_v8slrtorana_
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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:59 PM
Wire heating up really quickly sounds like a direct sort to earth.
Pictures of your coil, showing wiring might help me?
I'm slightly confussed, you say electric dizzy, but you have the crane unit. The crane unit can be run from a points dizzy, so wat exactly do you have?
If you have a points dizzy, the condensor could be shorting to earth (just disconnect and try starting) or the wire to the points could have broken off and leaning against the dizzy body?
Another stupid thing, your model might have 2 spade terminals on the starter motor, if one falls off, you can get a reduced voltage to the coil when the starter is engaged (cause's hard start issuses).
If it makes you feel better, every torana or kingswood i have owned, i've removed the original starter & coil circuit cause they have always given me grief.
Pictures of your coil, showing wiring might help me?
I'm slightly confussed, you say electric dizzy, but you have the crane unit. The crane unit can be run from a points dizzy, so wat exactly do you have?
If you have a points dizzy, the condensor could be shorting to earth (just disconnect and try starting) or the wire to the points could have broken off and leaning against the dizzy body?
Another stupid thing, your model might have 2 spade terminals on the starter motor, if one falls off, you can get a reduced voltage to the coil when the starter is engaged (cause's hard start issuses).
If it makes you feel better, every torana or kingswood i have owned, i've removed the original starter & coil circuit cause they have always given me grief.
#42
_rorym_
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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:59 PM
I kept on eye on the fuel filter (glass type) while it was idling and I noticed that after a little while it started to bubble and the fuel delivery did not look constant.
Now lets look at stupid things that have happened to me...
Take the petrol cap off....
It may not be breathing and creating a vacuum and stalling from lack of fuel...after..say 10 mins?
Just a thought.
R
Now lets look at stupid things that have happened to me...
Take the petrol cap off....
It may not be breathing and creating a vacuum and stalling from lack of fuel...after..say 10 mins?
Just a thought.
R
Edited by rorym, 17 March 2009 - 10:01 PM.
#43
_Big T_
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Posted 17 March 2009 - 11:35 PM
Wire heating up really quickly sounds like a direct sort to earth.
Pictures of your coil, showing wiring might help me?
I'm slightly confussed, you say electric dizzy, but you have the crane unit. The crane unit can be run from a points dizzy, so wat exactly do you have?
If you have a points dizzy, the condensor could be shorting to earth (just disconnect and try starting) or the wire to the points could have broken off and leaning against the dizzy body?
Another stupid thing, your model might have 2 spade terminals on the starter motor, if one falls off, you can get a reduced voltage to the coil when the starter is engaged (cause's hard start issuses).
If it makes you feel better, every torana or kingswood i have owned, i've removed the original starter & coil circuit cause they have always given me grief.
The setup I have is a Crane Fireball XR700 Optically Triggered Ignition system. "XR700 and XR3000 electronic ignition modules use an optical trigger assembly to replace conventional breaker points and original
equipment (OE) magnetic and Hall Effect pickup systems. The XR700 requires ballast resistance to limit coil current." (taken from the instruction manual).
I am using a Crane PS40 coil as recommended for this system. I am not using the ballast resistor as the Torana has a resistance wire already which if used with a ballast resistor would effectively be giving me double reistance. So I am told anyway.
I dont get it. When I ran it with the ballast resistor connected it would start and idle ok for a couple of minutes. Then it wouldnt hold idle at all and any further attempt to start would result in it firing up but then dying straight after.
Now that I have tried without the ballast resistor connected I get it to crank but it will not fire. All I end up with is a flat battery. Dunno, maybe I have burnt out the resistor wire when it was connected to the ballast resistor?
I have given up. I hate electrics at the best of times, let alone when I am pushing for a deadline. I am calling the auto sparky tomorrow. The wiring is butchered already, it doesnt need me going and making it not only worse, but unsafe in the process.
I do appreciate everyones input though. If nothing else I have identified a few little issues and learnt a bit in the process. I has just come to the point now where I feel it is beyond my patience and I simply dont have the time to keep stuffing around. This thing has to a sub 14.5 sec 1/4 mile before the end on the month. My reputation (or lack there-of) is on the line !!
#44
_SLR Goat_
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Posted 18 March 2009 - 07:08 PM
Maybe when u disconnected the resistor wire u removed power to the coil with igntion on i had that problem a few weeks ago when i was wiring up mine but as u said the wiring has being manhandled best let a sparky suss it out hopefully see u out on the strip on the 28th
cheers dennis
cheers dennis
#45
_Big T_
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 10:09 AM
FIXED !!! 
The auto electrician, Mark from Old Skool Auto Electrical (nice bloke), came around and ran some new wiring from the the ignition switch to the coil. He ran a non resitance 12v and a bypass wire (for starting) straight to the coil. I dont need to run the ballast resistor that came with the coil.
Car now starts first time, idles fine and when I took it for a test drive this morning it did not conk out once. Best $100 I've spent lately thats for sure.
What was the problem? Combination of things I reckon. Broken ring terminal on the alternator didnt help. Wrong coil for the job didnt help and the resistance wire from the ignition wasnt helping either.
The auto electrician, Mark from Old Skool Auto Electrical (nice bloke), came around and ran some new wiring from the the ignition switch to the coil. He ran a non resitance 12v and a bypass wire (for starting) straight to the coil. I dont need to run the ballast resistor that came with the coil.
Car now starts first time, idles fine and when I took it for a test drive this morning it did not conk out once. Best $100 I've spent lately thats for sure.
What was the problem? Combination of things I reckon. Broken ring terminal on the alternator didnt help. Wrong coil for the job didnt help and the resistance wire from the ignition wasnt helping either.
#46
MRLXSS
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 10:11 AM
FIXED !!!
DAMN!! LOL
#47
_Big T_
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 10:35 AM
Hahahaha, I knew you would be impressed !!
#49
_Big T_
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 11:53 AM
NOT FIXED.
Reversed the UC out of the driveway the morning of drag day with no worries. Moved the other Torana and left the UC idling but when I came back to it it had conked out. Tried starting again and it would fire but just not idle. When I move the throttle linkage on the carb I can see fuel squirting in and I can then start the car and it will fire but conks out again. I assume it is running on the fuel that is in the carb at the time.
So I am back at square one....
I took the fuel cap to see if it was a vacuum issue and I noticed this.
Not sure if the rest of the fuel cap is in the tank or not. I cant recall it breaking at any time and I wouldnt have thought the fuel fumes would weaken the metal to such an extent.
Reversed the UC out of the driveway the morning of drag day with no worries. Moved the other Torana and left the UC idling but when I came back to it it had conked out. Tried starting again and it would fire but just not idle. When I move the throttle linkage on the carb I can see fuel squirting in and I can then start the car and it will fire but conks out again. I assume it is running on the fuel that is in the carb at the time.
So I am back at square one....
I took the fuel cap to see if it was a vacuum issue and I noticed this.
Not sure if the rest of the fuel cap is in the tank or not. I cant recall it breaking at any time and I wouldnt have thought the fuel fumes would weaken the metal to such an extent.
#50
MRLXSS
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 12:07 PM
Have you got a fuel filter on it? Check and change that... replace with a clear bulb one if you do, so you can see if any gunk gets caught in it.
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