Big T i have had numerous problems with ignition modules in the past.My car runs vk commo bosch hei dizzy and 2 modules have given me trouble, but only with top end missfires. however efi 5litre modules can cut out or run rough when they heat up.Often when they cool down the car will start fine again. Another car had accel dizzy with stuffed module and it would backfire and stop after 10 minute but restart when cold. When problems occur they normally are pretty violent and engine will stop dead, not slow down and die out
308 Loss of power, no idle, wait 5 minutes and OK again?
Started by
_Big T_
, Feb 22 2009 11:35 PM
106 replies to this topic
#77
_Pallbag_
_Pallbag_
-
- Guests
Posted 03 April 2009 - 11:30 PM
Just got home from the RSL and I got it all sorted T.
Without putting you down, sounds like you know as much about electrics/fuel/whatever as I do about IT, so ...
Buy 2 or 3 bottles of Bourbon, 5 bottles of coke, bag of ice, keep the pizza phone number handy, get 2 or 3 mates around that know stuff, keep the missus onside for the time being to test drive it once the mates have it all sorted.
Finish the bourbon, eat the pizza, have a few larrfs with ya mates, maybe watch some porn in the shed, then next weekend when the missus is talking to you again, you can take her for spin in the "U"gly "C"ar and all will be schweet !!
Anyone else need counselling/mechanical advice ????
Without putting you down, sounds like you know as much about electrics/fuel/whatever as I do about IT, so ...
Buy 2 or 3 bottles of Bourbon, 5 bottles of coke, bag of ice, keep the pizza phone number handy, get 2 or 3 mates around that know stuff, keep the missus onside for the time being to test drive it once the mates have it all sorted.
Finish the bourbon, eat the pizza, have a few larrfs with ya mates, maybe watch some porn in the shed, then next weekend when the missus is talking to you again, you can take her for spin in the "U"gly "C"ar and all will be schweet !!
Anyone else need counselling/mechanical advice ????
#78
rodomo
-
- Members
-
- 18,046 posts
To advertise here, call 13TORANA
- Name:R - O - B Dammit!
- Location:Way out west of Melbourne Awstraylya
- Joined: 10-December 05
Posted 03 April 2009 - 11:39 PM
Now that's a plan!! 
#79
_brett_32i_
_brett_32i_
-
- Guests
Posted 04 April 2009 - 08:17 PM
i had an issue once where the steel fuel line came off the body clip at the diff and creased the rubber hose. idled ok but not enough fuel when you go for a drive.
#80
antelopeslr5000
-
- Members
-
- 1,022 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:Toowoomba, Queensland
- Car:1977 LX SL/R 5000
- Joined: 10-November 05
Posted 04 April 2009 - 09:27 PM
IMHO, the Fireball XR700 are rubbish. They are very fickle, especially when it comes to ballast resistance. If the ballast resistance is not correct, irreversable damage may occur to the module.
If the module has been damaged, it may seem fine when starting from cold but after a period of operation (ie. after it warms up) it fails. It needs to be left for a period of time for the module to cool down before it will operate again.
If the module has been damaged, it may seem fine when starting from cold but after a period of operation (ie. after it warms up) it fails. It needs to be left for a period of time for the module to cool down before it will operate again.
#81
GML-31
-
- Members
-
- 5,239 posts
Oh My, Don't you post alot
- Name:Kev
- Location:Highland Park
- Car:too many
- Joined: 08-November 05
Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:43 PM
I told him a few weeks back to try a new distributor and coil....the one he's got he bought second hand
#82
antelopeslr5000
-
- Members
-
- 1,022 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:Toowoomba, Queensland
- Car:1977 LX SL/R 5000
- Joined: 10-November 05
Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:30 AM
I told him a few weeks back to try a new distributor and coil....the one he's got he bought second hand
Yep, I agree Kev.
Just going back and reading some of the earlier post, Big T mentioned that the XR700 was hot to touch. Definitely not normal and usually indicates incorrect ballast resistance.
I'd be looking squarely at the POS XR700.
#83
_Bomber Watson_
_Bomber Watson_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:25 AM
Hmmm i missed this thread.
From my comparatively limited knowledge, i would like to make a few observations.
The firecrap is getting very hot, most of these things have built in temperature sensors that automatically cut themselves off if they get to hot and let the unit work again when it cools down.
Rectification: buy a MSD unit.
The modules in Holden electric dizzies are very temperamental. Put the points dizzy back in.
Take the tank out and clean it, clean it good. Its not a difficult job.
From there check every bit of fuel line, also check the tank breathers.
But basically with the items you have pointed out and the symptoms i believe its either the dizie module (throw a points one in and see what happens, points are for real men) or the firecrap (remove it).
Cheers.
From my comparatively limited knowledge, i would like to make a few observations.
The firecrap is getting very hot, most of these things have built in temperature sensors that automatically cut themselves off if they get to hot and let the unit work again when it cools down.
Rectification: buy a MSD unit.
The modules in Holden electric dizzies are very temperamental. Put the points dizzy back in.
Take the tank out and clean it, clean it good. Its not a difficult job.
From there check every bit of fuel line, also check the tank breathers.
But basically with the items you have pointed out and the symptoms i believe its either the dizie module (throw a points one in and see what happens, points are for real men) or the firecrap (remove it).
Cheers.
#84
rodomo
-
- Members
-
- 18,046 posts
To advertise here, call 13TORANA
- Name:R - O - B Dammit!
- Location:Way out west of Melbourne Awstraylya
- Joined: 10-December 05
Posted 05 April 2009 - 11:30 AM
The modules in Holden electric dizzies are very temperamental.
Average life approx 150,000klms for Bosch unit.
#85
_Pallbag_
_Pallbag_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 April 2009 - 12:15 PM
I got a MSD 6AL sitting in the cupboard, shame I wasnt closer you could give it a go ... Bought it when I got my Commodore Dizzy, was advised no need to use it with it.
#86
_Big T_
_Big T_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 April 2009 - 05:42 PM
Thanks heaps for the hints and suggestions. I may be a bit slow to try them all out as I have other priorities and not much time these days but I did get an hour or two of Torrie time this arvo so I crawled under the car for a look see.
Fuel or ignition? Might be one or the other or a combination of both. Anyway, here is what I found.
Traced the fuel line back from the fuel pump to the tank. When I got to the tank I found a decent sort of kink in the rubber hose that connects the metal fuel lines to the tank.
There are two lines and both are kinked
Might not the be root cause but definitely something that requires fixing. Any wonder the dyno dude said I had a drop in fuel pressure and recommended an electric pump or bigger mechanical pump.
Not sure if the following is relevant. The coil and crane unit are mounted to the inside of the firewall (in the cabin). Therefore the coil lead and the wiring from the dissy have to pass through the firewall. The two wires although insulated are touching. Like I said, Im not sure if this is relevant.
I checked for loose connections and took note of where the earth for the crane unit is located. The wire is screwed in tight but maybe the earth isnt in the best place. See below.
I also took a few photos of the location of the fuel filter. The broken fuel cap and the car that doesnt give me any grief
Next time I have the time I will start the car, wait for it to die and check for spark. I will have to zip tie a lead close to block to do this so I can test it myself. That will be next weekends effort.
Fuel or ignition? Might be one or the other or a combination of both. Anyway, here is what I found.
Traced the fuel line back from the fuel pump to the tank. When I got to the tank I found a decent sort of kink in the rubber hose that connects the metal fuel lines to the tank.
There are two lines and both are kinked
Might not the be root cause but definitely something that requires fixing. Any wonder the dyno dude said I had a drop in fuel pressure and recommended an electric pump or bigger mechanical pump.
Not sure if the following is relevant. The coil and crane unit are mounted to the inside of the firewall (in the cabin). Therefore the coil lead and the wiring from the dissy have to pass through the firewall. The two wires although insulated are touching. Like I said, Im not sure if this is relevant.
I checked for loose connections and took note of where the earth for the crane unit is located. The wire is screwed in tight but maybe the earth isnt in the best place. See below.
I also took a few photos of the location of the fuel filter. The broken fuel cap and the car that doesnt give me any grief
Next time I have the time I will start the car, wait for it to die and check for spark. I will have to zip tie a lead close to block to do this so I can test it myself. That will be next weekends effort.
#87
_Bomber Watson_
_Bomber Watson_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 April 2009 - 07:39 PM
Average life approx 150,000klms for Bosch unit.
And about a 99.9999999999% chance that the module in the dizzy is the same from factory and the car it was flogged from has done way more than that.
Just buy a damb MSD dizzy, coil, ignition module and leads. Only cost about $1500 for the lot, money well spent.
cheers.
#88
_Big T_
_Big T_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 April 2009 - 07:47 PM
^ "only $1500" !!! Dude I brew my own beer to save a few bob. I dont have $1500 to spend on an MSD. I wish I did, but I dont. Maybe later on I can justify the expense but for now it is not an option. Maybe I could get of them you beaut Procomp jiggers instead? 
If the crane unit is stuffed I will put in an electronic dissy from a late model Commodore as Kev suggested.
If the crane unit is stuffed I will put in an electronic dissy from a late model Commodore as Kev suggested.
#89
rodomo
-
- Members
-
- 18,046 posts
To advertise here, call 13TORANA
- Name:R - O - B Dammit!
- Location:Way out west of Melbourne Awstraylya
- Joined: 10-December 05
Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:04 PM
Average life approx 150,000klms for Bosch unit.
I wasn't arguing Bomber, just stating, from experience, the average life of a Bosch module.
Your post kinda read like they are no good.
My advise to anyone fitting a second hand, unknown, Holden HEI dissy would be to replace it anyway with another Bosch unit (there are cheaper ones out there) as for $35, it is cheap insurance.
You can buy them at your local milk bar too
Edited by rodomo, 05 April 2009 - 08:08 PM.
#90
_NURVUS_
_NURVUS_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:10 PM
The leads touching will be fine, the condute is on one of them for that exact reason.
I like the "only $1500". You would want to make sure it would fix the problem, you'd be pi$$ed otherwise.
Those lines arn't good either. If they are the problem or not, they'll need replacing.
The filter shouldn't be a problem, might just heat the fuel a bit where it is but nothing to worry about.
The earth is a bit hard to see but shouldn't be a problem if it's tight.
The cap is just.... weird.
I like the "only $1500". You would want to make sure it would fix the problem, you'd be pi$$ed otherwise.
Those lines arn't good either. If they are the problem or not, they'll need replacing.
The filter shouldn't be a problem, might just heat the fuel a bit where it is but nothing to worry about.
The earth is a bit hard to see but shouldn't be a problem if it's tight.
The cap is just.... weird.
Edited by NURVUS, 05 April 2009 - 08:15 PM.
#91
_Bomber Watson_
_Bomber Watson_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:20 PM
^ i didnt know you could get new ones that cheap. To be honest never bothered looking into it.
VK dizzie started playing up so i threw it and purchased a MSD setup. No problems.
I wasnt arguing either, just presenting a point.
I have read this thread from start to finish, every post, and it seems some people have missed a few points. These i outlined in my first post in this thread and to check them all will cost nearly nothing. I have had much better luck with points dizzies thus far (nothing to go wrong) OEM electric dizzies, thats why i suggested mr big T place his old points dizzie in there and have a go, at the same time isolating the craine module (ie wire it up like factory.)
That said im sure those fuel hoses wouldent have been helping, good find T.
No offence T, but seeing though you purchased a second hand (and seemingly troublesome as usual) craine system that new is worth the same as a MSD setup, and are talking about going procomp, by the time you bin the craine gear and purchase five procomp setups to get one that works right, you may as well have just gone MSD from the start and had no dramas plus enough money left over for a few commercially brewed cartons.
That said, if i was a bit closer i would gladly spend a weekend in your shed helping you get your toy running.
I know i sound like money is no object some times, but i have learnt the hard way with a lot of things (not just cars) that going the cheap way is usually more expensive in the long run. That is why i usually say strait up to buy proper gear.
I dont earn more money than most people on here, infact probably less than a large majority, but i spread projects over a long period of time. It saves money in the long run.
Cheers.
VK dizzie started playing up so i threw it and purchased a MSD setup. No problems.
I wasnt arguing either, just presenting a point.
I have read this thread from start to finish, every post, and it seems some people have missed a few points. These i outlined in my first post in this thread and to check them all will cost nearly nothing. I have had much better luck with points dizzies thus far (nothing to go wrong) OEM electric dizzies, thats why i suggested mr big T place his old points dizzie in there and have a go, at the same time isolating the craine module (ie wire it up like factory.)
That said im sure those fuel hoses wouldent have been helping, good find T.
No offence T, but seeing though you purchased a second hand (and seemingly troublesome as usual) craine system that new is worth the same as a MSD setup, and are talking about going procomp, by the time you bin the craine gear and purchase five procomp setups to get one that works right, you may as well have just gone MSD from the start and had no dramas plus enough money left over for a few commercially brewed cartons.
That said, if i was a bit closer i would gladly spend a weekend in your shed helping you get your toy running.
I know i sound like money is no object some times, but i have learnt the hard way with a lot of things (not just cars) that going the cheap way is usually more expensive in the long run. That is why i usually say strait up to buy proper gear.
I dont earn more money than most people on here, infact probably less than a large majority, but i spread projects over a long period of time. It saves money in the long run.
Cheers.
Edited by Bomber Watson, 05 April 2009 - 08:24 PM.
#92
_Big T_
_Big T_
-
- Guests
Posted 06 April 2009 - 12:35 AM
No worries Bomber. I just saw the $1500 dollar figure and freaked out a bit at how much the MSD gear is. I was talking to the Mrs and if we can definitely isolate the problem to the existing set up then I could seriously look at spending this sort of cash. "So long as it will fix the problem" was the directive she gave me It is also the sort of gear I could use on another engine in the future so after a bit more thought it would be a good investment. The initial outlay is the bit that hurts though... ah well, that how it goes I suppose.
I was joking about the Procomp gear and the crane unit and dissy etc cost me $100 from memory. Last of the big spenders hey !!
I went for a ferret through the shed and found the old dissy which is a twin point but I am unsure of the brand. All I gotta do now is figure out how to connect it back up properly, so I will be doing a few searches on here tomorrow for that one.
If the points dissy works ok, and I straighten out those fuel line links I might just lash out on a new fuel cap and carton of Powers !! Well, maybe not Powers perhaps XXXX Gold.
So my task for Easter is.
- Start car as is and get it running. Wait for it do die and then check for spark. No spark=replace dissy with the old points dissy.
- Regardless of ignition problems, blow out all the fuel lines and fix the kinked hoses
- Drop the fuel tank and give it a clean out (the chunks missing from the fuel cap are a concern... where are they now?)
It is also the sort of gear I could use on another engine in the future so after a bit more thought it would be a good investment. The initial outlay is the bit that hurts though... ah well, that how it goes I suppose. I was joking about the Procomp gear and the crane unit and dissy etc cost me $100 from memory. Last of the big spenders hey !!
I went for a ferret through the shed and found the old dissy which is a twin point but I am unsure of the brand. All I gotta do now is figure out how to connect it back up properly, so I will be doing a few searches on here tomorrow for that one.
If the points dissy works ok, and I straighten out those fuel line links I might just lash out on a new fuel cap and carton of Powers !! Well, maybe not Powers perhaps XXXX Gold.
So my task for Easter is.
- Start car as is and get it running. Wait for it do die and then check for spark. No spark=replace dissy with the old points dissy.
- Regardless of ignition problems, blow out all the fuel lines and fix the kinked hoses
- Drop the fuel tank and give it a clean out (the chunks missing from the fuel cap are a concern... where are they now?)
#93
_[BOTTLEDUP]_
_[BOTTLEDUP]_
-
- Guests
Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:01 PM
Wow had a good read of this thread and sympathise with you, there is nothing more frustrating than chasing niggling fuel and ignition problems.
Having read the article completely a couple of times, I keep coming back to the dissy, coil and ignition module as being the likely culprits...
First and foremost try and dig up the original points distributor, it being a dual point is a bit of a PITA but not hugely so. Take the time to get a new set of points and condensor for it (and cap/rotor if they look suspect) and also check there is no excessive movement in the dissy shaft. If your sparky has rewired the coil circuit to give a constant 12V you will need the ballast resistor to run with the points ignition, otherwise you are likely to burn the points out. The PS40 coil be used with a points ignition, and will need the ballast resistor as well.
When fitting it obviously ge tthe engine to TDC compression on No1 cylinder and mark where the rotor is pointing. This will make life easier when it comes to fitting the points dissy.
Having read the article completely a couple of times, I keep coming back to the dissy, coil and ignition module as being the likely culprits...
First and foremost try and dig up the original points distributor, it being a dual point is a bit of a PITA but not hugely so. Take the time to get a new set of points and condensor for it (and cap/rotor if they look suspect) and also check there is no excessive movement in the dissy shaft. If your sparky has rewired the coil circuit to give a constant 12V you will need the ballast resistor to run with the points ignition, otherwise you are likely to burn the points out. The PS40 coil be used with a points ignition, and will need the ballast resistor as well.
When fitting it obviously ge tthe engine to TDC compression on No1 cylinder and mark where the rotor is pointing. This will make life easier when it comes to fitting the points dissy.
#94
_Torana308_
_Torana308_
-
- Guests
Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:38 PM
Tony, I can put my hands on a normal points or Commodore electric dizzy if it helps you to diagnose the problem. Happy to help show you how to fit it as well if you like.
#95
_[BOTTLEDUP]_
_[BOTTLEDUP]_
-
- Guests
Posted 06 April 2009 - 01:58 PM
Good idea! If you've got a known working factory Bosch unit it would be better than the points unit.
#96
TerrA LX
-
- Members
-
- 14,241 posts
Fulcrum Fixture
- Location:Sid 'n' knee
- Joined: 31-May 06
Posted 06 April 2009 - 10:08 PM
Glad you found those kinks in the line, have you run it since?
If you have the ignition sorted and the kinks straightened and still having some problems it may be time to invest in a fuel pressure gauge and check the pumps delivery rate or better still, upgrade to an electric pump.
If you have the ignition sorted and the kinks straightened and still having some problems it may be time to invest in a fuel pressure gauge and check the pumps delivery rate or better still, upgrade to an electric pump.
#97
_NSS308_
_NSS308_
-
- Guests
Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:00 PM
Go the commodore electronic dizzy,i bought mine for 80 bucks about 8 years ago and has never given trouble except two modules. These never stopped the engine running but would stop the engine revving to its peak. Motor offten revs to the 7800 rpm limiter, so these dizys will handle anything you can throw at them. Have tried msd dizzy and did not make a single horsepower difference
#98
_Herne_
_Herne_
-
- Guests
Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:08 PM
Go the commodore electronic dizzy,i bought mine for 80 bucks about 8 years ago and has never given trouble except two modules. These never stopped the engine running but would stop the engine revving to its peak. Motor offten revs to the 7800 rpm limiter, so these dizys will handle anything you can throw at them. Have tried msd dizzy and did not make a single horsepower difference
I was talked out of getting the full MSD setup for that very reason - no gain in HP but a hefty load on the wallet.
So glad I listened to Struggler on that one. He has never led me astray.
Trying an electric Commo dizzy and the correct coil is what I would be looking at.
Herne
#99
_darrenmark1_
_darrenmark1_
-
- Guests
Posted 10 April 2009 - 01:33 PM
I had more or less the same problem, you could try this aswell.
Car would start but it was like not enough power, then it wouldn't even crank..nothin.... then it would click like a flat battery. If i crossed the starter it would fire up just fine. then i found this. Did exactly what it said and started first time.
Reco ignition switch
It seems to get spark straight away. And fires up a treat. i thought it was the starter or the battery lead, or the solinoid, but turned out to be the switch, cleaned it up. Great like new. As it should be everything is new, battery, starter, leads, points, coil.
Whoever explained the info in the link, thanks a lot.
Car would start but it was like not enough power, then it wouldn't even crank..nothin.... then it would click like a flat battery. If i crossed the starter it would fire up just fine. then i found this. Did exactly what it said and started first time.
Reco ignition switch
It seems to get spark straight away. And fires up a treat. i thought it was the starter or the battery lead, or the solinoid, but turned out to be the switch, cleaned it up. Great like new. As it should be everything is new, battery, starter, leads, points, coil.
Whoever explained the info in the link, thanks a lot.
Edited by darrenmark1, 10 April 2009 - 01:35 PM.
#100
_clinto_
_clinto_
-
- Guests
Posted 10 April 2009 - 05:53 PM
I was talked out of getting the full MSD setup for that very reason - no gain in HP but a hefty load on the wallet.
So glad I listened to Struggler on that one. He has never led me astray.
Trying an electric Commo dizzy and the correct coil is what I would be looking at.
Herne
$1500?
Get a electronic commo dizzy for $100 and add an almost new Crane Hi-6N's with coil for ~$250 mark from eBay...
Cheers,
Clint
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
